Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meanwhile, you've conceded once to me in about 12 years and backtracked on it the next week. This was after I took screenshots of the Yoda v. Sidious fight and in painstaking detail pointed out that Sidious was dominated in the fight and that he conclusively lost the Force battle.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Why do you remember that?
The thread was favorited in Chrome and I reread it a few weeks ago. Sadly, most of the scans didn't survive the hosting after all these years.
Originally posted by toplel
it was the pinnacle of his so far shitty life
I would ask which sock are you etc. but the truth is I don't really care.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It doesn't, because my stances have largely changed with time and with evidence. Hell, before I came to KMC I didn't give a rat's ass about ancient Sith, and I knew Exar Kun as KotOR body armor description better than I knew his actual storyline.
Seems pretty apparent that your stances have remained exactly the same, given the Kun wank and Sidious lowballing.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meanwhile, you've conceded once to me in about 12 years and backtracked on it the next week. This was after I took screenshots of the Yoda v. Sidious fight and in painstaking detail pointed out that Sidious was dominated in the fight and that he conclusively lost the Force battle.
It's really not my fault that all of the relevant source material directly contradicts your analysis and interpretation of the movie. 😬
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Seems pretty apparent that your stances have remained exactly the same, given the Kun wank and Sidious lowballing.It's really not my fault that all of the relevant source material directly contradicts your analysis and interpretation of the movie. 😬
1. Erm, no. Kun 'wank' as you term it is respect given due to the actual feats and mastery described in the source material. Material which you ignored or poo-poo'd for over a decade. Sidious 'lowballing' is a nice way of saying I refuse to suck the dark lord's wrinkly prick like most of SWVF. I've pointed out his rather low showings in comparison with other Sith outside of his own era. A lot of his "omg so win" stuff is largely unsubstantiated by his movie showings, like him mastering every saber style known to man while being a closet Sith lord and full time senator, but still being floored by Mace and Yoda.
2. The movie was, at the time of the argument, the highest form of canon and is held to be correct over a looser interpretation by lower forms of canon, of which the novelization is one.
In terms of Yoda, we have on-screen evidence of him dominating the saber fight. The script confirms that Sidious was disarmed. We later have on-screen evidence of Sidious being dominated in the Force and Yoda losing due mainly to a ring out.
That's as objective as debates get in this arena.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. Erm, no. Kun 'wank' as you term it is respect given due to the actual feats and mastery described in the source material. Material which you ignored or poo-poo'd for over a decade. Sidious 'lowballing' is a nice way of saying I refuse to suck the dark lord's wrinkly prick like most of SWVF. I've pointed out his rather low showings in comparison with other Sith outside of his own era. A lot of his "omg so win" stuff is largely unsubstantiated by his movie showings, like him mastering every saber style known to man while being a closet Sith lord and full time senator, but still being floored by Mace and Yoda.2. The movie was, at the time of the argument, the highest form of canon and is held to be correct over a looser interpretation by lower forms of canon, of which the novelization is one.
In terms of Yoda, we have on-screen evidence of him dominating the saber fight. The script confirms that Sidious was disarmed. We later have on-screen evidence of Sidious being dominated in the Force and Yoda losing due mainly to a ring out.
That's as objective as debates get in this arena.
1. Any one of us could easily use the same rationale for our position: the reputation Sidious enjoys here is "respect due" from the abundant source material and our lack of support for Kun is because we refuse to buy into the debunked antediluvian party line that OMG ancient stuff is soooo cool!!1! After all, Kun couldn't defeat a wannabe Ent and his greatest feats are thoroughly outclassed by Sidious's. 👍
2. Your analysis of the movie is and has always been contradicted by canon authorities, which almost unanimously agree that Sidious > Yoda.
Duelling with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious was a very different experience to fighting Dooku. Yoda was almost overwhelmed by the sheer hatred and fury of the Emperor.
--Fact File
Wheless' team worked out three key poses to tell the story:
1) Yoda and Darth Sidious lock lightsabers
2) Yoda is forced back by Sidious' power, and grimaces in pain
3) Yoda uses all of his strength to push Sidious back
[...]
"The shot is only three seconds long, but it communicates to the audience that Yoda has met his match," he says.
--Insider #86: Yoda’s Right Arm
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s Light and Dark Sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--The New Essential Chronology
His true criminal colors revealed after Order 66 wipes out the Jedi Order on a galactic scale, Chancellor Palpatine accepts the title of Darth Sidious and all that goes with it. Reveling in his power, he is challenged by a feisty Yoda in the empty Coruscant Senate chamber. It’s a furious, unprecedented battle royale, with both adversaries hurling and dodging chamber pods. Ultimately, an overmatched Yoda flees to fight another day.
--Star Wars Trading Card Game
Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa.
--Ultimate Star Wars
Yoda confronted Sidious in the heart of the Senate chambers. This erupted into an intense duel between these masters of the Force, a fight that Yoda ultimately lost and was forced to flee.
--Databank: Yoda
Master Yoda made a last-ditch attempt to stop him, and their fight spilled over into the now-empty Senate rotunda. Darth Sidious overwhelmed Master Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant.
--Databank: Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious
Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious.
--Revenge of the Sith Story Gallery
The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat.
--Coruscant History Gallery
A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong.
--Revenge of the Sith Canon Junior Novelization
Even the greatest warriors of the Jedi - Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, even Yoda - could not defeat the Sith.
--The Last of the Jedi: Underworld
Lol
There's a lot wrong with this. Chiefly that secondary sources describing events which we can physically review are not equal or superior evidence.
First off, sources saying "Yoda lost, because Sids is teh powerfulz" should never supplant actual on-screen evidence for the same reason why eyewitness testimony would never supplant a camera recording of an event.
Second, I'll just repost this from 2008:
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I have limited time to, Escape, so let me just post the following to get the argument started:Here's the first real attack of the saber fight:
Yoda does a leaping attack, back initially exposed. Sidious already had his blade up. He comes right down with it.
Next scene:
Yoda deflects his cleave without any effort or change in his jump direction. And lands and does a jump back which makes Sidious flail about and pull a stupid face:
Clearly, he's not in control of the fight at that moment, being unbalanced by Yoda's attack. Next, Yoda bounces again off of the center pod, this time behind Sidious' attacking shoulder. Watch the sequence to see how Sidious barely gets in a defense, and only in front of himself:
So now Sidious has lost any advantage and is in a saber lock of sorts with his opponent. Despite being taller, physically stronger, and having a longer blade (Equally more leverage), Yoda again controls the engagement and breaks the saber lock, initiating another leap attack:
To be continued
Originally posted by Janus Marius
... And then during this twisting flip, Yoda hits Sidious' saber, but Sidious doesn't hit Yoda at all:... And the swing which nearly connects is neatly caught by Yoda without any strain or effort:
And then Sidious snarls in fruitless rage and swings his blade like it's a scythe before it cuts to the Obi versus Anakin fight.
There's the first part. I'll do the rest tonight so you all can review it entirely, but so far it's near conclusive. This is Sidious and Yoda on even ground, not Sidious in the center on flat ground and Yoda on the slippery sides, dancing like a bee. So it's pretty evident that Yoda would take a neutral setting and whup Sidious' ass.
Additionally, the ROTS script supports the gap in on-screen coverage of how Sidious somehow became saberless. Gideon/Tempest tried very earnestly to assert that he somehow put it away in his robe for safe keeping in the middle of a heated battle, but that's obvious rubbish. The script supports that Yoda disarmed Sidious, and absent any other convincing argument, this seems to be the most valid conclusion to support.
So we have obvious screen grabs of Yoda making Sids look like a tool, and then he later disarmed him (almost as easily as Mace did).
Point - Yoda.
--
Now, about the Force battle. Yoda was dominant in this too. Examine this -
Sidious initiated the Force lightning. Yoda, despite being an ancient small puppet on the side of a mostly sleek senate pod, caught the attack almost on his lap. He, with effort, reversed it. Sidious, using his amazing Sith power which cannot be rivaled ever in KMC, does this:
^ That's the face of mastery and power, folks.
The resulting explosion knocks both back. However, Sidious has a rail to grab on to and survive; Yoda falls from a significant height and is saberless and wounded. He decided to retreat, because victory is unlikely given the environmental circumstances which robbed him of his superiority over Sidious.
Force Part 2: The Pod Chucking Fun.
Sidious throws various pods at Yoda. Yoda dodges most of them, with some difficulty, because he's very old and probably infested with gout.
Finally, tired of Sid's shit, he catches one at point blank range:
Let's examine Sid's amazing Force powers here.
At ~2:37-39, you can see Sidious manipulate several pods. The thing is, the audio has the same 'whirling' sound as is used when the pods' antigrav device is manipulated. In other words, he's not throwing/TKing the pods, he's TKing their controls. The whirling accompanies the movement of each pod as it comes crashing down at Yoda. It's pretty evident.
But wait, there's more.
At about ~3:10-12, Yoda catches a pod, while Sidious laughs tactically. The whirling continues until Yoda rotates the pod, and sends it flying back up at the dark lord. The whirling is absent as it ascends. Sidious, with his great powers of super amazingness as supported by various C-canon excerpts, blurbs, and supplemental materials which provide much fanwank, leaps aside, unable to stop it.
Force battle, point Yoda.
In conclusion, Yoda was superior.
/debate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
1. Any one of us could easily use the same rationale for our position: the reputation Sidious enjoys here is "respect due" from the abundant source material and our lack of support for Kun is because we refuse to buy into the debunked antediluvian party line that OMG ancient stuff is soooo cool!!1! After all, Kun couldn't defeat a wannabe Ent and his greatest feats are thoroughly outclassed by Sidious's. 👍2. Your analysis of the movie is and has always been contradicted by canon authorities, which almost unanimously agree that Sidious > Yoda.
Tsk tsk:
Originally posted by Gideon
Taking into consideration the sheer amount of opposition and thinking about it reflectively, I suppose there is no way to conclude that I'm the one who has come to the right conclusion, I suppose I'm just not seeing something. I'm going to concede the argument without quarter or objection.
You've had more than a week to come up with something and that's the best you can do? 😬
Moose
There's a lot wrong with this. Chiefly that secondary sources describing events which we can physically review are not equal or superior evidence.
Close, but not quite: Your personal interpretation of the movie is not equal or superior the dozens of canon sources that describe the events of the movie, which almost all conclude the same thing: Sidious is stronger than Yoda and won the fight.
Spoiler:
Because you're not a canon authority, you see.
Yea, basically. In fairness, there was actually a couple of things stealth pointed out which I never noticed, and I suppose there's an argument to be made for a movie-only interpretation, but when it comes down to it, canon/legends basically unanimous agree the fight was either
a. a sids victory
or
b. a stalemate
Which is why Sids is >/= Yoda.
While the movie supersedes all else, your interpretation of the movie is not = to the movie itself