Originally posted by phil
Good - the arm part was the one in contention that I said you were wrong about. Was Superman fresh? No. Did he have any clear damage [broken arm, bleeding eyes]? Also no. Did some scratches left on his face affect his ability to punch hard? Of course not. Given the fact that he wasn't without a scratch/messy you can argue that his durability would not be 100% (how much? we don't know, but even if under normal circumstances it would take Hercules 2-3 punches to KO him, it wouldn't change the fact that it's ridiculous), but the force of his punches isn't significantly diminished, just because he has scratch marks on his face. And it was both his AND Diana's punches, simultaneous, consecutive ones, that Hercules shrugged without damage.
diana was in even WORSE shape than kal was so how much she was contributing, who knows? but now you're saying he shrugged them off without any damage. which is basically what i've been saying--they were in far worse shape than he was when the fight took place. the fact that superman caught one of his punches with a recently broken arm...also doesn't help you. and despite that, he was still one shotted. so, maybe we say he was nearly as strong as he would be normally, but the accumulation of damage dropped his durability way down? i dunno. what i do know--superman has fared FAR better against similar opponents in that series. to me that speaks pretty clearly to the fact that he was nowhere close to 100%. and diana was much worse off than he was. /shrug
The fight didn't portray Hercules as stronger than Superman - I already posted the scan where Superman catches his punch, which generally in comics denotes >= strength. But what it does show is that whatever strength level Hercules is place, he has the ability to KO Superman in one hit. Does that show that he will one-shot KO Superman in each and every fight? Of course not. But the fact that he has a single long showing, and that's his average, favors him in this thread.
i don't think a single showing should ever be used to extrapolate from in the first place, but moreso in this case than normal even because the single showing is severely mitigated, by circumstances. and given that you feel he was weakened by getting hit a couple times--enough that cm was able to handle him easily--i don't think that bodes well for his durability in a prolonged fight at all. and i def think if he fought marvel's herc he'd need to be able to withstand a lot greater beating than the one he took here.
I still, for the life of me, can't understand how you think that showing Hercules:a). Taking Hal's all out attack
b). Taking Superman and Wonder Woman, combined, punching him in the face.
c). One-shotting Superman in orbit and choking Wonder Woman with one hand
d). Taking Captain Marvel sucker punching and then beating him....one after another WITHOUT DAMAGE, compared to just Superman/Diana alone giving visible damage to each other, is something that you hope to prove helps your case.
i'm equally not sure how you can look at the scans of the fights and think anything else. you are simply putting FAR greater stock in the attacks herc took from superman and diana and hal, than i am. i agree completely with you--he seemed to take them almost without damage--which is what i've been saying. that IS why i think cm beating him down so easily looks so bad on him. superman and diana fought for....i dunno 15-20 pages? herc took a couple shots (and really, i do sort of dismiss hal's attack since it's clear it had almost zero impact). that means he either: (a) has a poor enough durability that a couple shots from diana and superman (both unarguably NOT at their best) weakened him to the point that cm could kick his a$$, or (b) he was powerful enough to no sell supes/diana/hal and so was fresh when he fought cm who STILL kicked his a$$ in a couple hits. and frankly, i'm not sure how EITHER binary conclusion helps your herc.... /shrug
If you go by you, and say that prior attacks [and sucker punches] taken diminish a combatant's performance thus should be thrown out, fresh Captain Marvel beating gauntlet-style Hercules is eliminated. In fact, in this case, all of Hercules feats are muddy, since everybody is weakened, including him, in every fight. So we can just...leave the thread, since discussion is non-existent.
of course not all fights are thrown out because of prior attacks--but fights where the combatants were best friends, had just fought for 20 or so pgs, been ko'd a couple times, had their arms broken and eyes gouged out or been sucker punched a couple times? yeah, i'm ok throwing those fights out. 😛
if you want to say it's ALL to muddy to determine 👆 i've been saying something similar this whole time.
If you go the opposite of your logic, and say that prior attacks did nothing to Hercules - you're only reinforcing how far above marvel Hercules he is, that he can withstand the strength of Diana+Superman combined and Hal without a scratch.
not at all, rather it reinforces to me that supes and diana were greatly reduced, and that herc's durability really sucks since cm beat him so easily.
The problem with your position in this thread is that you were selective in your arguuments [Hercules sucker punching Diana happened, but somehow Diana and Billy sucker punching him were omitted], selective in your memory [we went from Superman's arm was broken, to yes it was healed but how much? ok maybe it was fully healed but what about the scratches?], and thus the discussion is either A or B, thus the logic corner I posted above.
and the problem, as i see it, with your position is that you are too focused on the minutiae like counting every sucker punch. if you look at the scans i posted it's clear as day imo that superman and diana put each other through complete hell, and that the battle they had diminished them greatly. herc? he didn't seem to have almost any problems and seemed fine or at least mostly so, when he fought cm--who beat him easily. i feel like we've reached the circle stage here, btw.
How about this: Diana and Superman, fresh, probably would've been able to take his attacks better, but that doesn't mean we dismiss the showing entirely. The durability showing, for one, can't be dismissed for the simple fact that some scratches on Diana/Superman's face doesn't mean that their punches were suddenly significantly weaker - and it was clear that Hercules durability was high just from how he no-sold Hal Jordan. And even if Superman wasn't fully healed, to be able to do that to him in one-punch is something that I can't see Hercules replicating, especially as he is simultaneously punched in the face by both Superman and Wonder Woman. For me, given these, Injustice Hercules is definitely more durable and different degrees, depending on how weakened you see Superman was, stronger.
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i'm not dismissing the showing entirely. all along i've said the feat is mitigated by the circumstances. i disagree with your overall assessment because we simply place different stock in the damage superman and diana meted out. and the impact hal had. i think weathering those combined attacks is a lot less impressive than you do, so, we'll never see eye-to-eye on the issue. which i'm fine with.
Can you make an interpretation that is not 'Superman and Wonder Woman were damaged, so f*ck that part entirely. Hal is weak so f*ck that part, too. Shazam? Oh that definitely shows exactly how powerful Hercules is!".
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not really.... i've never said the showing was bad--in fact i said it was decent. the reason i say only that is because this appears to be a very low showing for superman and diana, both of whom have way better feats throughout. so, WHY was it a low showing for them? well, it followed an insane battle they had. coincidence? i don't think so, so it follows that they weren't at their best. if they weren't at their best we have no idea how impressive herc's beat down of them is. i only go by what i saw--herc didn't seem overly taxed from a combined attack by them, (implying diana/supes were weaker than normal--much so imo) he seemed fresh when cm beat him down (implying his durability sucks). shrug
That's quite an awesome showing of skill and resilience, I agree.I'll change it to Injustice Hercules two-shots him, just for that
conk
maybe the new herc respect thread will change your mind. 🙂
wasted enough time on a thread i....don't even care much about lol i leave the last word to you. don't want to take anymore of your time away from prepping for your big bz with celey. 👆
Originally posted by leonidasI never said Hercules is stronger than Superman.
the fact that superman caught one of his punches with a recently broken arm...also doesn't help you.
Originally posted by leonidasI would agree with this. I never said Superman [or especially Diana, who didn't have Cyborg to heal her] were 100%.
so, maybe we say he was nearly as strong as he would be normally, but the accumulation of damage dropped his durability way down? i dunno.
Originally posted by leonidasI don't feel he was weakened at all, which is the part that's really impressive and puts him above Herc, imo, that he took all of that without missing a beat - I was just going after your train of though of prior fight = not 100% so it doesn't matter.
and given that you feel he was weakened by getting hit a couple times--enough that cm was able to handle him easily--i don't think that bodes well for his durability in a prolonged fight at all.
Aaaanyway, to sum up the discussion, it's this:
Originally posted by leonidas
i disagree with your overall assessment because we simply place different stock in the damage superman and diana meted out. and the impact hal had. i think weathering those combined attacks is a lot less impressive than you do, so, we'll never see eye-to-eye on the issue. which i'm fine with.
I don't see Superman/Wonder Woman's strength weakened to any degree that matters, so the ridiculous Herc durability showing still stands, but I agree that their durability was to a certain extent [moreso Diana, who didn't recover at all between damage/KOs], but Superman wasn't standing on his last leg to say that him being one-shotted is somehow not impressive.
Originally posted by leonidas
conkmaybe the new herc respect thread will change your mind. 🙂
I look forward to reading it 🙂 I was just trolling with my first reply of Injustice Herc one-shotting him, btw, and I got dragged it with the broken arm part. The rest was just arguing for the sake of it. I AM serious when I think that Injustice Herc is more durable and arguably stronger...but Herc's resilience and skill is to be noted.
Originally posted by leonidas
wasted enough time on a thread i....don't even care much about lol i leave the last word to you. don't want to take anymore of your time away from prepping for your big bz with celey. 👆
👆
I'll wing it, but still.
Would you like to be a judge? I'm not sure how active Digi/ID are, and I'm tired of PMing everybody again to see what they're up to. You're much more active. If celey agrees to.
Originally posted by leonidas
i swear trying to quote phil..... sneer
I know..
I have problems quoting myself.