Originally posted by Philosophía
Molecule Man explicitly states that he only controls the molecules around him. He is not the Universal, Solar System or even Earth-scale matter manipulator that we are used to.How is this in contention?
Nope. He states that he controls the molecules around him, not that he cannot control the molecules outside of that.
The point is that he want to show his intention to Osborn that he isn't a threat to the outside world so they let him in peace.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaMolecule Man explicitly states that he only controls the molecules around him. He is not the Universal, Solar System or even Earth-scale matter manipulator that we are used to.
How is this in contention?
You're making the mistake of confusing the "molecules around him" statement for the scale of the area he can affect. But that's not what's meant with the "molecules around me" talk.
This is what's actually meant:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920731-ff372_15.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920732-ff372_30.jpg
In one of the older comics the narration states, that the Molecule Man is one of the most powerful beings in the universe.
And in the following fight he goes up against Aron, the Rogue Watcher. Aron beats Molecule Man by encapsuling him in a bubble with no molecules. Because with no molecules around him there wasn't much Molecule Man was able to do at that point:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920753-ff373_05.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920755-ff373_06.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920762-ff373_19.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920767-ff373_20.jpg
Originally posted by Enzeru
You're making the mistake of confusing the "molecules around him" statement for the scale of the area he can affect. But that's not what's meant with the "molecules around me" talk.This is what's actually meant:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920731-ff372_15.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920732-ff372_30.jpgIn one of the older comics the narration states, that the Molecule Man is one of the most powerful beings in the universe.
And in the following fight he goes up against Aron, the Rogue Watcher. Aron beats Molecule Man by encapsuling him in a bubble with no molecules. Because with no molecules around him there wasn't much Molecule Man was able to do at that point:https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920753-ff373_05.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920755-ff373_06.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920762-ff373_19.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/10/102593/2920767-ff373_20.jpg
Unless I've suddenly gone blind, those scans are not from the Avengers version of Molecule Man.
In this one, he was explicitly town-scale.
"I control the very molecules of the world...Well, the ones around me."
You're free to show me where he affects the Universe in that one.
Or the galaxy.
Or the solar system.
Hell, I'll settle for EARTH.
Go.
Still on about Molecule Man?
If Sentry really had full MM power, the norns stones sure wouldn't have helped. He's never, ever shown that kind of power level, EXCEPT against MM, so I think it's safe to say we can file that under "one shot power" along with Superman's soul vision, or Thor's "hammer sense" spider-sense knockoff.
Originally posted by cdtm
Still on about Molecule Man?If Sentry really had full MM power, the norns stones sure wouldn't have helped. He's never, ever shown that kind of power level, EXCEPT against MM, so I think it's safe to say we can file that under "one shot power" along with Superman's soul vision.
It is safe to say that Sentry unleashed the true understanding of his powers.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Unless I've suddenly gone blind, those scans are not from the Avengers version of Molecule Man.In this one, he was explicitly town-scale.
"I control the very molecules of the world...Well, the ones around me."
You're free to show me where he affects the Universe in that one.
Or the galaxy.
Or the solar system.
Hell, I'll settle for EARTH.
Go.
No.
Unless he said that he cannot affect the outside world, he can do it.
He said many times that he didn't want to attract the attention of the outside.
His point is to protect his territory and be left alone.
Originally posted by Philosophía"I control the very molecules of the world...Well, the ones around me."
You're free to show me where he affects the Universe in that one.
Or the galaxy.
Or the solar system.
Hell, I'll settle for EARTH.
Go.
That is not a fair request. It's also pretty much the same as if I asked you to show me scans of the Flash building 100.000 snowmen within 5 seconds. If you can't show the scans, then the Flash can't do it. But we both know, that he can do it. It's just that he was never in the situation where he had to build 100.000 snowmen within 5 seconds and even more importantly, he was never in the situation where he actually wanted to do it.
The same applies for the Molecule Man, who in Dark Avengers had a very specific goal: He wanted to live alone and in peace in his home town. He didn't want to affect the Earth or the universe for that matter. All he wanted was to be left alone in his home town. But for some reason people on this board all of a sudden started reducing his overall power level to that particular city and saying, that he couldn't have affected anything more, even if he wanted it. Which is simply not true.
Read the story and pay attention to the dialog. It's all there:
http://i.imgur.com/5TnC6qN.jpg
^ That scan alone says it all. The illusions Molecule Man had created tell him to take the world. He answers that he doesn't want the world. That he only wants the town he is in.
But as I said, this board for some reason turned that statement into that version of the Molecule Man being a town level molecule manipulator.
Consider this... That Molecule Man has ripped the Sentry apart on a physical and molecular level. The Sentry at his weakest is a low trans level character, if we go by him being at his weakest, when he fought World War Hulk.
A town level molecule manipulator isn't going to do any damage to someone like that.
Molecule Man was not at the height of his powers during his encounter with the Sentry, but the power level he had at that point would have been enough to do the same to Thor, Superman, Shazam, Hulk and any other hero. It's just that they wouldn't have come back from that onslaught and they sure as hell wouldn't have defeated him.
Originally posted by EnzeruThat's an awful analogy.
That is not a fair request. It's also pretty much the same as if I asked you to show me scans of the Flash building 100.000 snowmen within 5 seconds. If you can't show the scans, then the Flash can't do it. But we both know, that he can do it. It's just that he was never in the situation where he had to build 100.000 snowmen within 5 seconds and even more importantly, he was never in the situation where he actually wanted to do it.
Flash is faster than light. That's a fact. Whatever application of his powers we have within that speed/time frame, he can do it.
Molecule Man's power is vastly dependent on his mind. That's literally his entire history. Your analogy would work only if it was made clear that his scope - in the actual story line - is Universal, and then I'd ask you to show him warping Asia. Asia is within the scope of Universal, so of course he can.
What you don't have, is something that puts him at Universal - in fact, he is quite explicitly only able to warp the molecules around him, and the ONLY scope he has is town level. That's right there in the comic, where he puts a cap on his power.
The Universe is not molecules around him, unless you want to be really disingenuous. What his hallucinations tell him is not proof either - especially since they don't explicitly tell him take control of the molecules in the entire world. Given his power level [and not knowing what Sentry can do], of course he can take over the world.
So we have:
- explicit limitations to only molecules around him
- only takes over a town
- a statement from his hallucinations that he should 'take over the world'
I can even give you that he can warp a planet, and it would still put him at Silver Surfer level.
Here's Earth compared to out Universe:
http://www.dingtwist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Earth-in-the-Universe.jpg
...and you want to sell him as Universal power?
Please.
The Sentry at his weakest is a low trans level character, if we go by him being at his weakest, when he fought World War Hulk.
WWH is not low trans. Sentry burning himself out and getting KO by Banner is actually quite clear proof that he is not at that level.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
And MM was weakened, his mental state was unstable, he was afraid, lonely, crazy and sadIt's even stated that he wants to be found, wants to fail, that's why he never killed the DA off:
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Dark-Avengers-2009/Issue-11?id=17521#25
All the time his personality was split, his emotions were divided, confused. He wanted to fail and he did. If this is not weakened, then nothing is.Sentry wanted to die, voided out and Void took control to survive and was killed. There some people argue that Sentry was weakened and wanted to die, even though Sentry wasn't there but instead the Void.
When MM is unstable, wants to be found, wants to fail, he is suddenly at full power, even though he blatantly states "I control the very molecules of the world. Well, the ones around me." So he already tells us how big his control or power is right now, very limited and far from Universal or Multiversal.
👆
The fact that he subconsciously states through the Beyonder construct that he wants to fail speaks volumes of his mental state and lack of confidence.
We have seen several times over his history that Owen with lack of confidence diminishes his powers a lot.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elbut you're forgetting that actual on panel proof doesn't count against Sentry as he has limitless power!
👆The fact that he subconsciously states through the Beyonder construct that he wants to fail speaks volumes of his mental state and lack of confidence.
We have seen several times over his history that Owen with lack of confidence diminishes his powers a lot.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
👆The fact that he subconsciously states through the Beyonder construct that he wants to fail speaks volumes of his mental state and lack of confidence.
We have seen several times over his history that Owen with lack of confidence diminishes his powers a lot.
Mate, that's not his lack of confidence that weakens his powers.
That's only his beliefs in his powers
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
👆The fact that he subconsciously states through the Beyonder construct that he wants to fail speaks volumes of his mental state and lack of confidence.
We have seen several times over his history that Owen with lack of confidence diminishes his powers a lot.
Molecule Man also explicitly says to Osborn:
"And you came into MY world. So I control the world around you".
If Molecule Man could control the entire Earth, then there would be nothing for Osborn to come into. And this is not even getting into the Universe, which is what's trying to be pushed here.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaMolecule Man's power is vastly dependent on his mind. That's literally his entire history.
I know that. And that's also something I've been arguing for.
The last time we saw Molecule Man before he fought the Sentry, he was in the Raft. A prison for regular people. A bio had stated, that SHIELD managed to capture him, while he was in a weird mental state and his power level was manageable.
So a crazy mental state clearly makes Molecule Man weaker and in Dark Avengers he was talking to illusions. Molecule Man was clearly crazy and hence weaker, than we would expect him to be.
I've never ever argued, that it was the multiversal or hell even an universal version of the character.
What I've always argued for however, is that he was AT LEAST... AT THE VERY LEAST a mid to high trans level character. Anything below that isn't going to do to the Sentry what Molecule Man was able to do:
Ripping the Sentry apart on a physical and on a molecular level. It takes insane amounts of power to achieve that, since we're talking about a guy, who while depowered took attacks from World War Hulk. And asked for more. Sentry tanked Thors strongest attacks. Planet busting attacks from Genis-Vell. Sentry fought Void in 1v1s - the same creature, that broke all the bones in Hulks body without even trying.
You simply don't rip someone like that apart, if you're a town level molecule manipulator. You just don't.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaWWH is not low trans. Sentry burning himself out and getting KO by Banner is actually quite clear proof that he is not at that level.
What is World War Hulk in your opinion? Higher than a low trans character? Lower actually?
No matter how you look at it, I don't think it's crazy to say, that Hulk is a high herald in the strength and durability (healing factor) depoartment. He might be a mid herald due to his lack of versatility, but nothing lower. And in World War Hulk his strength and durability got amped so much further than ever before.
World War Hulk was at least a low trans character.
And then you had the Sentry punching it out with that guy. And I've went out of my way to explain that the Sentry we saw there was the weakest Sentry we had ever seen.
And that guy went toe on toe with the Hulk for multiple pages, until both burnt themselves out. That depowered Sentry made the Hulk use all of his energy to inflict damage on the Sentry, or healing factor to keep healing all the damage he was receiving... Whatever. Hulk and Sentry both used everything and reverted back.
And Sentry just went up from there power level wise.
I personally argue that Sentry is the most powerful trans level character in comics. Not on the level of Skyfathers like Odin, but high heralds like Thor aren't an issue for him. And with his X-factor of him being a wild card, I'm never surprised, when he comes up with even more ridiculous showings... like for example him defeating the Molecule Man. Or him supposedly fighting Galactus to a standstill. Or him outperforming the combined powers of over 100 heroes, that were amped with Hulks gamma radiation.
Marvel has called the Sentry the most powerful superhero in the Marvel universe. So have a couple of Marvel characters. Why shouldn't I do the same ?_?
