Originally posted by Galan007
The force itself intentionally gave Luke that premonition(even though he had tried to cut himself off from it entirely.) So yes, I'd put a lot of stock in it, tbh.
I don't know. Sometimes there are multiple ways things can play out. The vision Luke had may have been trying to tell him to get Rey to defeat the new threat, for if she didn't, it would be like he hadn't defeated the Empire. That doesn't mean there's no hope at all. Especially with the whole prophecy of the chosen one.
Well, he spent the 22 years between RotS and ESB doing almost nothing of note, and then another year continuing to do almost nothing... Then he died.
That's because Luke had already been found. If he hadn't, he would've done something to train Leia, who probably, due to the will of the Force, survived the whole ordeal on the death star. Being realistic about it, it's kind of against all odds that Luke survived that.
Almost all of the Jedi who survived O66 had been purged by the time ANH rolled around, and those who remained were certainly no challenge to Vader -- let alone Palpatine.
To train Luke/Leia, I mean.
*Only* Luke(and presumably Leia) had the potential to truly threaten Vader/Palpatine. If they had been removed from play from the get-go, it would have drastically changed everything.
Well, I'd like to bring up the prophecy (multiple prophecies, actually) again, and I've already said that Ben's death doesn't mean Luke doesn't leave the planet/never becomes a Jedi. And it certainly doesn't mean Leia just dies on the death star.
Vader ultimately redeemed himself(and killed Palpatine) BECAUSE OF his love for Luke. If Luke weren't in the picture, it is very unlikely that Vader would've ever made a move against Palpatine.
Unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
Originally posted by ZentrexThat's not the way Luke's dream reads at all in the novel.
I don't know. Sometimes there are multiple ways things can play out. The vision Luke had may have been trying to tell him to get Rey to defeat the new threat, for if she didn't, it would be like he hadn't defeated the Empire. That doesn't mean there's no hope at all. Especially with the whole prophecy of the chosen one.
Luke had an extremely vivid premonition of what would've happened if he hadn't followed Ben's path and become a Jedi. Per his premonition, the Empire was still going strong years after RotJ(he was an old man in the premonition.)
Originally posted by ZentrexAccording to his premonition, Leia would have been executed when she was captured by Tarkin/Vader in ANH... Which means Ben/Yoda would've never got the chance to train her.
That's because Luke had already been found. If he hadn't, he would've done something to train Leia, who probably, due to the will of the Force, survived the whole ordeal on the death star. Being realistic about it, it's kind of against all odds that Luke survived that.
Originally posted by ZentrexAgain, I'm just citing what we were explicitly told in Luke's premonition.
Well, I'd like to bring up the prophecy (multiple prophecies, actually) again, and I've already said that Ben's death doesn't mean Luke doesn't leave the planet/never becomes a Jedi. And it certainly doesn't mean Leia just dies on the death star.
You can disagree if you'd like... Doesn't change what he foresaw. /shrug
Originally posted by ZentrexLet me put it another way: there is very little(almost no) evidence to suggest that Vader would have ever turned against Palpatine if it hadn't been for Luke... The love for his son was *the* sole catalyst behind Vader's redemption.
Unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
If it hadn't been for Luke, Vader would have likely remained the obedient lapdog that Palpatine made him.
Alright, alright, alright, alright. In the new canon. But in legends...
What happened was already very unlikely. The only reason it happened is because the Force needed it to. So Palpatine not dying by the hands of Vader as prophesized is impossible. Kenobi's death isn't going to change that.
Though if I'm going to resort to desperate arguments, then I can say that the force probably wouldn't have allowed Kenobi to die, and he is a jedi master, so a stroke at the age of what, 50? seems unlikely, especially considering what he's endured. And then again, he could always talk to Luke from beyond the dead.
Originally posted by ZentrexYeah, I was talking canon. 👆
Alright, alright, alright, alright. In the new canon. But in legends...What happened was already very unlikely. The only reason it happened is because the Force needed it to. So Palpatine not dying by the hands of Vader as prophesized is impossible. Kenobi's death isn't going to change that.
Though if I'm going to resort to desperate arguments, then I can say that the force probably wouldn't have allowed Kenobi to die, and he is a jedi master, so a stroke at the age of what, 50? seems unlikely, especially considering what he's endured. And then again, he could always talk to Luke from beyond the dead.
Anywho, the prophecy of the Chosen One is... Meh. The 'balance' only lasted a little over 30 years until the dark side returned back to the galaxy en gros(thanks in large part to the contingencies that Palpatine himself put in place.)
Anakin/Vader balancing the force certainly didn't amount to the "victory for all time" that Yoda prophesied in TCW, but I digress... /shrug
Originally posted by Zentrex
Alright, alright, alright, alright. In the new canon. But in legends...What happened was already very unlikely. The only reason it happened is because the Force needed it to. So Palpatine not dying by the hands of Vader as prophesized is impossible. Kenobi's death isn't going to change that.
Though if I'm going to resort to desperate arguments, then I can say that the force probably wouldn't have allowed Kenobi to die, and he is a jedi master, so a stroke at the age of what, 50? seems unlikely, especially considering what he's endured. And then again, he could always talk to Luke from beyond the dead.
Yeah, Legends, Jedi can extend their lives, push their bodies beyond their limitations thanks to The Force. Probably that way in Canon too.
So yeah...and 50 isn't really that old. It's old sure, but not like super old.
Originally posted by Zenwolf👆
Yeah, Legends, Jedi can extend their lives, push their bodies beyond their limitations thanks to The Force. Probably that way in Canon too.So yeah...and 50 isn't really that old. It's old sure, but not like super old.
Mace was in his 50s when he died, and still going very strong. Another good example is Dooku, who was in his 80s.
It's also worth pointing out that even if we assume that at some point Vader kills Palpatine, that is neither the death of the Empire nor the death of the Dark Side. The Empire is still there, it's still being ruled by a dark sider (an even more committed dark sider, as Luke's conflict was the only thing drawing Vader toward the light). Eventually Vader would have just found an apprentice and the cycle would have continued.
Business would have basically continued as usual. The Empire is too vast and bureaucratic to break down from just a changing of heads.