Originally posted by deathslashClearly the sloppiness was still there on Florum even after Maul's training. It wasn't a one-time thing either—Gallia exposed it, Kenobi kicked it multiple times before caving it in during the saber-lock. Savage was simply sloppy and refused, or was unable, to correct his form.
1. That definitely makes if funny that Savage with his "sloppy" technique was doing so well against Kenobi2. He had no real experience at that time with a saber and Maul later began training him
3. He still out skilled a Jedi Master and his padawan when he didn't even have a saber.
I mean I don't blame him. He was able to over-power almost all of his foes up to that point with brute strength so why put the effort into technique.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No, a Ventress who is armed with both her sabers against an opponent of Savage's abilities who she's not inherently disadvantaged against while at her peak is likely solidly above that level.
You seem to be making up her "disadvantages".
In case you haven't read Dark Disciple, you should know she is just as capable with a single Saber.
You're also ignoring Savage's disadvantage of not being able to make full use of his beastly (but unpredictable) TK in that environment.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaConsidering Ventress traded blows with Maul for 10 seconds before landing a kick on him, despite possessing the same disadvantages against Maul that she had against Savage, I find your placement inaccurate.
You mean the fight where her and Kenobi were out matched? Sure.
Maul was also not using his standard weapon, but like Ventress is still fully capable.
She's fought against Opress Twice, and was outmatched both times. So I'm actually being kind placing Ventress on Opress's level.
You seem to have excuses but no actual evidence to place Ventress above Opress.
Originally posted by KurkI don't think maul had a sufficient amount of time to train Savage before Florum. Also, Savage clearly wasn't sloppy as is demonstrated by his ability to easily take down a Master and his Padawan (in addition to their clones) without even using a saber. It can certainly be acknowledged that he doesn't have the skill of the upper tier force users, but he wasn't sloppy.
Clearly the sloppiness was still there on Florum even after Maul's training. It wasn't a one-time thing either—Gallia exposed it, Kenobi kicked it multiple times before caving it in during the saber-lock. Savage was simply sloppy and refused, or was unable, to correct his form.I mean I don't blame him. He was able to over-power almost all of his foes up to that point with brute strength so why put the effort into technique.
Originally posted by deathslashAll he did with Halsey is dodge his lightsaber, squeezed the sh1t out of his arm to disarm him, and tanked his kicks. It's not like he relied on anything sort of technical skill—just his superior speed, strength, and endurance. With the clones he just tanked their shots and knifed them like your typical Call of Duty troll.
I don't think maul had a sufficient amount of time to train Savage before Florum. Also, Savage clearly wasn't sloppy as is demonstrated by his ability to easily take down a Master and his Padawan (in addition to their clones) without even using a saber. It can certainly be acknowledged that he doesn't have the skill of the upper tier force users, but he wasn't sloppy.
Up until his fight with Kenobi, Savage was such a brute that he didn't feel the incentive to fix the vulnerabilities in his "form" like his poorly positioned legs since he could just tank anyone who went for them. Kenobi changed that for him.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You seem to be making up her "disadvantages".In case you haven't read Dark Disciple, you should know she is just as capable with a single Saber.
You're also ignoring Savage's disadvantage of not being able to make full use of his beastly (but unpredictable) TK in that environment.
Elaborate please.
Where does it say she's "just as capable" rather then making do?
That's irrelevant since we're talking about these character's abilities as lightsaber combatants, not overall combatants.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You mean the fight where her and Kenobi were out matched? Sure.Maul was also not using his standard weapon, but like Ventress is still fully capable.
She's fought against Opress Twice, and was outmatched both times. So I'm actually being kind placing Ventress on Opress's level.
You seem to have excuses but no actual evidence to place Ventress above Opress.
What does that have to do with Ventress holding her own against Maul while at a disadvantage?
Fair enough.
Where was she beaten by Savage before? Are you referring to his rage amped Force choke? If so, you do realize that that same logic can be applied to a comparison between Savage and Dooku, right?
Her ability to defeat Grievous on a DS nexus, her ability to force Mace to use all his skills to defeat her pre prime after she'd fought a group of Jedi and her ability to defeat Fisto pre prime all help to place her above Savage as a lightsaber combatant for me. As overall combatants they might be more even given Savage's telekinetic ability and I can even see him beating her due to the advantages he holds against her. But he's definitely not on par as a lightsaber combatant.
Originally posted by Kurkdefinitely think you're down playing it. How many beings in the galaxy could casually dodge two saber strikes from a Jedi Master while using a hugely inferior weapon? I'm pretty sure that he didn't get shot by any of the clones. I actually think he dodged their shots as well.
All he did with Halsey is dodge his lightsaber, squeezed the sh1t out of his arm to disarm him, and tanked his kicks. It's not like he relied on anything sort of technical skill—just his superior speed, strength, and endurance. With the clones he just tanked their shots and knifed them like your typical Call of Duty troll.Up until his fight with Kenobi, Savage was such a brute that he didn't feel the incentive to fix the vulnerabilities in his "form" like his poorly positioned legs since he could just tank anyone who went for them. Kenobi changed that for him.
He also didn't lack any skill against Ventress in their fight on Dathomir. He was slower than her (that could be chalked up to her using the force), but he certainly seemed like a highly skilled warrior and was even impressive with his weapons. I think that his apparent "lack" of skill was because the lightsaber is a very different weapon than what he was used to.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Elaborate please.Where does it say she's "just as capable" rather then making do?
That's irrelevant since we're talking about these character's abilities as lightsaber combatants, not overall combatants.
I just think you're exaggerating her disadvantages. I've already addressed the 2 sabers. Would it be a disadvantage? Sure. But not some massive one IMO for below reasons.
Because she Chose to use a single Saber. You're making it out as if she just happened to find her new Saber and couldn't get hold of a second one. She's also regularly fighting off dual opponents tackling them with 1 saber each. So yeah it's safe to say she's perfectly capable, but probably not fighting at her best.
Ah okay, I'm talking about overall combat abilities. If we're talking just Sabers, then yeah I'd give Ventress the advantage.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What does that have to do with Ventress holding her own against Maul while at a disadvantage?Fair enough.
Where was she beaten by Savage before? Are you referring to his rage amped Force choke? If so, you do realize that that same logic can be applied to a comparison between Savage and Dooku, right?
Her ability to defeat Grievous on a DS nexus, her ability to force Mace to use all his skills to defeat her pre prime after she'd fought a group of Jedi and her ability to defeat Fisto pre prime all help to place her above Savage as a lightsaber combatant for me. As overall combatants they might be more even given Savage's telekinetic ability and I can even see him beating her due to the advantages he holds against her. But he's definitely not on par as a lightsaber combatant.
Because if swapping opponents was going to make a massive difference, they would have done it.
Cool.
Except Dooku has stomped Savage 1 v 1, and was handling the duo of Ventress and Opress together. My point being Opress has been shown to be her superior twice. Once mainly down to TK, and once down to his Physical Strength. Although like I've already admitted I wouldn't give him the majority if he has to rely solely on the latter.
Looking at your last paragraph It seems we've just crossed wires as we more or less agree 👆
Originally posted by deathslashThe clones made the foolhardy mistake of running at a melee weapon wielding foe. Savage did take a hit from them.
definitely think you're down playing it. How many beings in the galaxy could casually dodge two saber strikes from a Jedi Master while using a hugely inferior weapon? I'm pretty sure that he didn't get shot by any of the clones. I actually think he dodged their shots as well.He also didn't lack any skill against Ventress in their fight on Dathomir. He was slower than her (that could be chalked up to her using the force), but he certainly seemed like a highly skilled warrior and was even impressive with his weapons. I think that his apparent "lack" of skill was because the lightsaber is a very different weapon than what he was used to.
Savage may have been a skilled warrior, but that does not translate to skill in saber technique. My point is that he relied on his superior Talzin-magic physicals more than he did on whatever little lightsaber technique he possessed.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I just think you're exaggerating her disadvantages. I've already addressed the 2 sabers. Would it be a disadvantage? Sure. But not some massive one IMO for below reasons. Because she Chose to use a single Saber. You're making it out as if she just happened to find her new Saber and couldn't get hold of a second one. She's also regularly fighting off dual opponents tackling them with 1 saber each. So yeah it's safe to say she's perfectly capable, but probably not fighting at her best.Ah okay, I'm talking about overall combat abilities. If we're talking just Sabers, then yeah I'd give Ventress the advantage.
Just because she found a single blade doesn't mean she would have been able to find a second. And who's to say a second blade would even be as useful to her if it wasn't an identical pair like the lightsabers she had under Dooku.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because if swapping opponents was going to make a massive difference, they would have done it.Except Dooku has stomped Savage 1 v 1, and was handling the duo of Ventress and Opress together. My point being Opress has been shown to be her superior twice. Once mainly down to TK, and once down to his Physical Strength. Although like I've already admitted I wouldn't give him the majority if he has to rely solely on the latter.
Looking at your last paragraph It seems we've just crossed wires as we more or less agree 👆
I'm not saying that swapping opponents would have made a massive difference, though I highly doubt Maul would allow them to do so given he has far greater impetus to force a fight between himself and the man who ruined his life rather then, what's to him, some random Nightsister.
The TK instance isn't valid as evidence given the moment only occurred under specific circumstances. The rest I agree with.
Seems so.
what the faq is this? Yea, having one of your blades disarmed is a hindrance. When you're practicing using and regularly fight with two blades, you'll be better with two blades than one, not sure why that's so hard to grasp.
Additionaly, Ventress using her one blade in the first place was a product of an unfavorable enviorment where ventress's blade ended up falling behind a crate denying ventress the time she would have to retrieve it. In fact had it not been for the impact of hitting the crate, ventress would have likely never had the blade leave her grasp in the first place.
Regardless, the fight remains a stalemate because Oppress was unable to capaitalize on Ventress being unarmed and when Ventress had two blades Oppress did not gain any advantage over her.
A pre-prime ventress stalemated Oppress and thus logically a prime ventress would beat him, not that hard to understand.
For the record we've seen having one blade explicitly be a hindrance before:
Unfortunately, Ahsoka became perhaps too reliant on using both weapons together, to the detriment of her other techniques.
-- Star Wars Fact File 43
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what the faq is this? Yea, having one of your blades disarmed is a hindrance. When you're practicing using and regularly fight with two blades, you'll be better with two blades than one, not sure why that's so hard to grasp
So the same counts for Maul right? He was heavily disadvantaged against TCW Kenobi without his Saber Staff right?