Rank the Defenders in the following categories...
As I was watching the Defenders, I started mentally ranking them as pertains to the following categories:
1) Strength...
2) Agility/Athleticism...
3) Combat Skill...
4) Durability...
5) Attack Power...
How would you all rank the Defenders in these 5 categories?
Originally posted by FrothByte
1. Strength - LC, JJ, DD, IF
2. Agility - this is tricky. Agility as in who does the craziest sommersaults? DD, IF, JJ, LC. Or agility as in who's the most agile fighter? IF, DD, LC, JJ3. Combat Skill - DD, IF, LC, JJ
4.Durability - LC, JJ, DD, IF
5. Attack power - IF, LC, JJ, DD
I think you are spot on as pertains to 1, 3, 4, and 5...
👆
I guess I should make 2 a bit more clear; agility/athleticism is the totality of the characters speed (both running and combat), leaping ability, and reflexes...
And I guess this is a bit tricky as Jessica Jones has the greatest pure leaping ability of the bunch, but her combat speed is clearly inferior to that of Daredevil and Iron Fist...
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I think you are spot on as pertains to 1, 3, 4, and 5...👆
I guess I should make 2 a bit more clear; agility/athleticism is the totality of the characters speed (both running and combat), leaping ability, and reflexes...
And I guess this is a bit tricky as Jessica Jones has the greatest pure leaping ability of the bunch, but her combat speed is clearly inferior to that of Daredevil and Iron Fist...
Ok let's focus on #2. Here's the thing. When you watch their respective fight scenes, Danny actually has more complicated fight moves than Daredevil. His moves are harder to pull off yet he still delivers cleaner and more powerful-looking kicks, crisper and snappier punches and arm movements. So in that sense, I would say he's the more agile fighter.
However, Danny does not have any feats that can compare to Daredevil's parkour abilities. When it comes to scaling walls and getting around obstacles, Daredevil clearly is the more agile acrobat.
I guess to sum it up: Danny has more agile kicks, punches, blocks and strikes whereas Matt has more agile acrobatics.
So how do we then decide who's more agile?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok let's focus on #2. Here's the thing. When you watch their respective fight scenes, Danny actually has more complicated fight moves than Daredevil. His moves are harder to pull off yet he still delivers cleaner and more powerful-looking kicks, crisper and snappier punches and arm movements. So in that sense, I would say he's the more agile fighter.
I don't know about this. It varied for me across the different fight scenes, often depending on whether it was the actors or their stunt-doubles doing the moves. There are a couple of fights where Iron Fist still looks pretty awkward when he pulls off various moves, especially when it's Finn Jones himself pulling off a longer sequence.
However, I do agree that his base fighting style is meant to be a more agile and fluid style compared to Matt's. Matt's base is boxing, which he then combines with Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Eskrima and a couple other styles, whereas Danny's base is in Kung Fu, and he uses various forms of it at different points.
Originally posted by FrothByte
However, Danny does not have any feats that can compare to Daredevil's parkour abilities. When it comes to scaling walls and getting around obstacles, Daredevil clearly is the more agile acrobat.
Well, Danny has the one really nice feat of flipping over that taxi. But then Matt has kept up with cars by parkouring halfway across Hell's Kitchen, while suffering from multiple injuries.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I don't know about this. It varied for me across the different fight scenes, often depending on whether it was the actors or their stunt-doubles doing the moves. There are a couple of fights where Iron Fist still looks pretty awkward when he pulls off various moves, especially when it's Finn Jones himself pulling off a longer sequence.However, I do agree that his base fighting style is meant to be a more agile and fluid style compared to Matt's. Matt's base is boxing, which he then combines with Muay Thai, Jiujitsu, Eskrima and a couple other styles, whereas Danny's base is in Kung Fu, and he uses various forms of it at different points.
Well, Danny has the one really nice feat of flipping over that taxi. But then Matt has kept up with cars by parkouring halfway across Hell's Kitchen, while suffering from multiple injuries.
Well obviously we have to compare stunt double vs. stunt double and actor vs. actor.
I've rewatched the fight scenes just now. I'm convinced that Danny's stunt double is a better martial artist than Matt's. You'll notice it mostly in the kicks. Cleaner, faster, more effortless. And surprisingly, I actually found Finn Jones doing his fight scenes better than Charlie Cox. Obviously he's not as good when compared to Cox's stunt double, but those scenes where I see their faces I can appreciate Finn's movements more than Cox's. Such a big improvement from his fight scenes in Ironfist.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Well obviously we have to compare stunt double vs. stunt double and actor vs. actor.I've rewatched the fight scenes just now. I'm convinced that Danny's stunt double is a better martial artist than Matt's. You'll notice it mostly in the kicks. Cleaner, faster, more effortless. And surprisingly, I actually found Finn Jones doing his fight scenes better than Charlie Cox. Obviously he's not as good when compared to Cox's stunt double, but those scenes where I see their faces I can appreciate Finn's movements more than Cox's. Such a big improvement from his fight scenes in Ironfist.
Well, it also seems to vary, with Daredevil, in terms of whether Cox/his stunt double are in and out of costume. They seem to move much more easily in plain clothes than they do in the Daredevil suit. It's something I actually noticed on Daredevil's own show as well. Even though he is implied to be faster, more skilled etc. based on how the fights go in S2 compared to S1, he actually visually looked faster and more agile in S1 than in S2 IMO.
Finn Jones did improve a lot, but there are still some blatantly visible screw ups on his part in a few shots. For example, during the season finale, I remember cringing at the one elbow he threw, which visibly stopped probably a good two inches away from the guy he was supposed to be hitting. No idea how they let that shot into the final cut. Was worthy of the Nolanverse choreography.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, it also seems to vary, with Daredevil, in terms of whether Cox/his stunt double are in and out of costume. They seem to move much more easily in plain clothes than they do in the Daredevil suit. It's something I actually noticed on Daredevil's own show as well. Even though he is implied to be faster, more skilled etc. based on how the fights go in S2 compared to S1, he actually visually looked faster and more agile in S1 than in S2 IMO.Finn Jones did improve a lot, but there are still some blatantly visible screw ups on his part in a few shots. For example, during the season finale, I remember cringing at the one elbow he threw, which visibly stopped probably a good two inches away from the guy he was supposed to be hitting. No idea how they let that shot into the final cut. Was worthy of the Nolanverse choreography.
I'm not saying he's perfect. Finn Jones ain't no martial artist. Just saying Danny Rand's moves (whether it's him or his stunt double) normally look crisper than Matt's moves (whether it's Cox or his stunt double).
Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm not saying he's perfect. Finn Jones ain't no martial artist. Just saying Danny Rand's moves (whether it's him or his stunt double) normally look crisper than Matt's moves (whether it's Cox or his stunt double).
Fair enough. Not sure I agree but it's not really a big deal either. Like I said, Danny's implied to have a more agile fighting style in anyways.
On a random note, in terms of feats of pure athleticism, Jessica Jones can run a sub 4 minute mile. It should be noted that the fastest RL female mile is 4:12.56. And this is despite Jess being such a terrible alcoholic that she steals beers from some homeless guy on the subway.
Also, no category for endurance/stamina? It's not quite the same as durability.
Originally posted by FrothByte/thread
1. Strength - LC, JJ, DD, IF
2. Agility - this is tricky. Agility as in who does the craziest sommersaults? DD, IF, JJ, LC. Or agility as in who's the most agile fighter? IF, DD, LC, JJ3. Combat Skill - DD, IF, LC, JJ
4.Durability - LC, JJ, DD, IF
5. Attack power - IF, LC, JJ, DD
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I never thought about it; could be a fun topic...Have we seen enough from them, in terms of stamina, to rank them as pertains that category?
I'd put Luke Cage at the bottom of the stamina category. He's only ever gone up against one serious fight against a person of similar abilities (Diamondback) and he was clearly winded at the end of that fight (even though he was exaggerating it a bit).
Daredevil gets first place for his feat of going through a whole hallway of fighters despite being heavily injured.
Jessica Jones gets 2nd place for her fight against Nuke which she accomplished after getting hit by a truck... though in her case it might be more an indication of her healing capabilities and general toughness.
Ironfist is a question mark. I don't recall Danny ever getting winded even after his multiple challenges with the Hand, but I also don't think he's ever been pushed to his limit like the other 3.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I'd put Luke Cage at the bottom of the stamina category. He's only ever gone up against one serious fight against a person of similar abilities (Diamondback) and he was clearly winded at the end of that fight (even though he was exaggerating it a bit).Daredevil gets first place for his feat of going through a whole hallway of fighters despite being heavily injured.
Jessica Jones gets 2nd place for her fight against Nuke which she accomplished after getting hit by a truck... though in her case it might be more an indication of her healing capabilities and general toughness.
Ironfist is a question mark. I don't recall Danny ever getting winded even after his multiple challenges with the Hand, but I also don't think he's ever been pushed to his limit like the other 3.
Once again, I think you are spot on with your assessment of the Defenders. 🙂
👆
Disagree about Luke being at the bottom. He was a bit winded at the end of his fight with Diamondback because he let the guy land shot after shot. Those hits, especially a lot of body shots, work on your energy levels. It's specifically a way to tire an opponent out. If you put any of the other 3 Defenders into the same situation, they wouldn't be breathing hard. They'd more than likely be dead. And even if they weren't, I doubt any of them would have enough energy to still be standing on their feet.
Then there is the fact that Luke swam all the way from Seagate to the mainland, a feat that was said to be "impossible" for a normal man. And then there is also that he was still cruising around for a few hours, getting into fights with both Diamondback and the police, after getting shot by Judas bullets. When you are seriously injured or sick, you deplete your energy reserves quicker, as more of it is dedicated to helping your body recover. So, the fact that he could go on for as long as he did despite his injuries is a serious testament to his endurance and stamina.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Disagree about Luke being at the bottom. He was a bit winded at the end of his fight with Diamondback because he let the guy land shot after shot. Those hits, especially a lot of body shots, work on your energy levels. It's specifically a way to tire an opponent out. If you put any of the other 3 Defenders into the same situation, they wouldn't be breathing hard. They'd more than likely be dead. And even if they weren't, I doubt any of them would have enough energy to still be standing on their feet.Then there is the fact that Luke swam all the way from Seagate to the mainland, a feat that was said to be "impossible" for a normal man. And then there is also that he was still cruising around for a few hours, getting into fights with both Diamondback and the police, after getting shot by Judas bullets. When you are seriously injured or sick, you deplete your energy reserves quicker, as more of it is dedicated to helping your body recover. So, the fact that he could go on for as long as he did despite his injuries is a serious testament to his endurance and stamina.
He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then?
Originally posted by FrothByte
He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then?
At this stage, Danny. Fact is that we are explicitly told that no normal human could have made the Seagate swim. Luke made it, and wasn't even out of breath when he got to shore. And, again, the only other Defender we've seen remain active as long as Luke for, while suffering from comparable levels of damage, is Daredevil. We've yet to see either Danny or Jess get into fights (and win) while basically being half dead. And I would put Jess above Danny, because she is also explicitly implied to have superhuman stamina and endurance, based on her one conversation with Nuke (where the sub 4 minute mile is also mentioned).
Originally posted by FrothByteYeah I think I agree with Vault on this. Yeah he got more winded fighting an equal opponent, but stamina should be measured by a fixed standard. For example, I'd imagine they'd be more winded than he trying to push back a 5 ton vehicle.
He still looked a lot more winded fighting an equal opponent than DD or Ironfist ever did. You may not want to put him last but who are you going to put last then?
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Yeah I think I agree with Vault on this. Yeah he got more winded fighting an equal opponent, but stamina should be measured by a fixed standard. For example, I'd imagine they'd be more winded than he trying to push back a 5 ton vehicle.
Nah that would directly correlate to strength. Stamina would be asking them to run at full speed continuously and see who drops first.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
At this stage, Danny. Fact is that we are explicitly told that no normal human could have made the Seagate swim. Luke made it, and wasn't even out of breath when he got to shore. And, again, the only other Defender we've seen remain active as long as Luke for, while suffering from comparable levels of damage, is Daredevil. We've yet to see either Danny or Jess get into fights (and win) while basically being half dead. And I would put Jess above Danny, because she is also explicitly implied to have superhuman stamina and endurance, based on her one conversation with Nuke (where the sub 4 minute mile is also mentioned).
So you're putting Danny last despite never seeing him look winded in a fight? Doesn't seem logical to me.
Here's a question. If you made the 4 of them run at top speed continuously, who do you think will drop first?