Amora empowered a young lady named Samantha Parrington to become the 2nd Valkyrie. She defeats the Incredible Hulk, a being known for being physically stronger than Juggernaut (though not as durable), with little more than a squeeze of his neck (pressure point maneuver).
This renders the Hulk completely unconscious, as Amora herself looks on:
Note that Amora has the power to render Hulk unconscious, and worse, completely without physical contact, and did so before the Parrington episode:
Source: Incredible Hulk #102
Cover Date: April 1968
Sale Date: January 9th, 1968
Writer: Gary Friedrich
Artist: Marie Severin
Inker: George Tuska
Letterer: Artie Simek
Colorist: Uncredited
The showing with Parrington is the most intriguing entry to me.
It suggests that Amora can, with scarcely more than a touch, knock out someone in Hulk's class.
In which case the main difficulty is dealing with Juggy's force field and/or his helmet. Let's look at the high end of helmet removal, as we saw Longshot, armed only with what looks like some throwing knives, giving us a relatively low-end example:
Source: Uncanny X-Men #541, Volume 1
Note how easy it is even for Thor to divine the Juggernaut's power is magical in nature. Note the ease with which he thwarts Jug's invulnerability by setting up an interference barrier. Note that Jug is, at best, of roughly Hulk-level durability after the maneuver.
Source: Thor #429, Volume 1
Writer: Tom DeFalco
Penciller: Ron Frenz
Date: February 1991
Juggs is not Hulk though. Hulk is a human mutated by gamma energy, while Juggs is magical and still empowered by magic even when his force field is turned off/nullified. They are very different beings. Back in the days of those Valkyrie scans Hulk was knocked out by gas plenty of times too, while Juggs was immune to it. Back then Hulk suffered from fatigue and needed to rest or was even reduced back to Banner by heavy exertions, while Juggs being magical didn't tire. Hulk needed air, food, and water while Juggs didn't. Hulk was restrained by the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, while Juggs was empowered by Cytorrak. And so on. A lot has changed since those days of course, but Hulk's showings back then probably aren't the best comparison.
And maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...
Originally posted by basilisk
Juggs is not Hulk though. Hulk is a human mutated by gamma energy, while Juggs is magical and still empowered by magic even when his force field is turned off/nullified. They are very different beings. Back in the days of those Valkyrie scans Hulk was knocked out by gas plenty of times too, while Juggs was immune to it. Back then Hulk suffered from fatigue and needed to rest or was even reduced back to Banner by heavy exertions, while Juggs being magical didn't tire. Hulk needed air, food, and water while Juggs didn't. Hulk was restrained by the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, while Juggs was empowered by Cytorrak. And so on. A lot has changed since those days of course, but Hulk's showings back then probably aren't the best comparison.And maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...
Originally posted by leonidas
lol he's been on ignore forever, so i was just going by what i saw quoted and, as is the norm, his reasoning made no sense. like i said, i think it could be a good match up if the 2 of them went at it full on, but amora's magic is a tough counter more often than not.as for this fight, the only ending i can see is juggs proclaiming his undying love for amora...
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed with most of the scans, with the possible exception of Longshot and his knives.Sure, they're *just* knives, but he's got luck on his side.
Incredible amounts of it.
You're right, Longshot DOES have a far better chance than a normal man, or even a "normal" mutant, given that probability field of his.
Fact, I recall some reviewer admiring the extraordinary levels of physical power, compassion, and strategic thinking displayed by Rogue in this issue, long, long before she would eventually be chosen as one of the "official" leaders of the X-Men. Note that before trusting herself to the attempt at train-stoppage here, Rogue wisely makes Longshot a passenger on that same train to protect the other riders:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed with most of the scans, with the possible exception of Longshot and his knives.Sure, they're *just* knives, but he's got luck on his side. Incredible amounts of it.
Having said the above, I need to say I do not, for even six seconds, believe Enchantress would find herself thwarted if she made removing Juggernaut's helmet a personal goal of hers.
I DON'T see anyway Longshot with any amount of cutlery could top what Amora shows us here, for instance:
Source: Thor #452, Volume 1
Year: 1992
(By the way, can any longtime Thor fan tell me why in the world Odin would be working with enemies AGAINST Thor in this arc? What am I missing here?)
Originally posted by basilisk... maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...
Lateness of the hour might be affecting me; I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering when in the world the Fantastic Four (FF) ever went up against Juggernaut OR Odin in all their comic history ...
Admittedly, retcons DO make it difficult to argue this type of discussion with even the illusion more "grounded" comic works have. What to make of the following, for instance:
Versus...
Originally posted by basilisk... maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments ...
It's probably worth noting that Asgardian can cancel Asgardian when it comes to spells. In Dazzler #16, for instance, an Asgardian Vizier dispels the enchantment Amora used to make Allison helpless and commands they have a trial by combat. He does this quite without the initial permission of the Enchantress.
As for Odin, it might be worth pointing out that Amora's ability to "enchant" unwitting admirers seems to extend even to him, as alluded to in Amora's LATER "duel" with Allison:
Source: Dazzler #16, Volume 1
While on the subject of Amora's signature ability, it might be worthwhile to note the speed at which she can ensnare someone. Thor, even knowing what she is capable of falls in an early adventure, and is nearly completely hers when she follows up on that initial cast:
Source: Avengers #7, Volume 1
(Note: Only a small percentage of the full story is shown here.)
I wrote the following earlier in another thread.
Including it NOT to suggest Amora is going to have success in an actual brawl, rather to suggest she probably has "surprise" options if she gets caught, cornered, grabbed, etcetera.
Marvel opponents ALWAYS seem surprised when Amora demonstrates her physicality. I doubt Juggernaut would be any different, and such could save her life ...
Amora is a LOT stronger than the average reader, and perhaps even the average Marvel character, realizes.
For instance, here is a good showing for how strong the Spider-Man villain, Lizard, was:
... but, despite Liz catching her completely off-guard and dealing a vicious, potentially debilitating injury to her face, this is how easily Amora deals with him, through a combination of her strength and magic skill:
Thought of an interesting point for the Juggernaut side that I do not think will be brought up if I don't bring it up, so:
Juggernaut has demonstrated some limited ability to use spells.
It is not something he ordinarily does. It is not, from my understanding, anything he has done in over 20 years. But it IS something that has seen print, and might offer something to a discussion that otherwise seems fairly one-sided to me in favor of the Enchantress. Interestingly enough, it ALSO occurs against Nightmare, who I showed battling Amora a few posts ago, even as Jug has 1 other case I know of magic use, where he utilizes some kind of globules magic missiles against the X-Men:
I initially came across the above in the following thread, featuring a very good scenario discussion of how Juggernaut might fare in a battle of bricks:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=602252&pagenumber=1
Unfortunately, most of those scans of Jug's esoteric abilities seem to have erased themselves. Perhaps someone knowledgable can supply the reference info when time permits.
Anyway, I have no qualms granting Jug that ability.
Even at half power, Enchantress demonstrates arguably the most deus ex machina ability of all -- history-changing time travel!
This story is a lot of fun.
Immortus, Executioner, Goliath, and ... Paul Bunyan!?
Longtime comic readers should be able to follow the villain's introduction, proving his credentials, offer of plan, switch to heroes as target, conflict, turnaround, etcetera ...
Source: Avengers #10
Circa: 1966
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Lateness of the hour might be affecting me; I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering when in the world the Fantastic Four (FF) ever went up against Juggernaut OR Odin in all their comic history ...Admittedly, retcons DO make it difficult to argue this type of discussion with even the illusion more "grounded" comic works have. What to make of the following, for instance:
Versus...
FF in his post meant force field.... human torch fought juggs with the x-men YEARS ago, he used his flame to stagger juggs.
