Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait...wait...I asked the parents, AND the grandfather (grandmother passed away), and I presented gifts (dowry if you want to call it that). So it's sexist for following tradition of old people? Why? Who cares? So what if your social justice warrior bullshit ideas makes you offended. Fu*k you, of course. I don't care about your feelings. You're not the one marrying into this family, I am. They want the respect of the man who is going to take their daughter away and they want to see if he is going to respect their daughter enough to take care of her. If he puts the effort in to follow the old tradition, he's probably going to try a bit harder in the marriage, too. They want to see what type of person I am going to be so getting their blessing and approval is absolutely necessary if I want to bring our families together.
Contrary to popular social justice warrior belief, almost all men can beat the shit out of almost all women. So it can be scary to give your daughter away to a man you barely know. So they set up these old traditions to help protect their daughter and give themselves a bit more assurance than nothing. Also, name-reputation was on the line and arranged marriages were often between CHILDREN, not an old man and a young woman (I'm thinking of the Elizabethan Period and marriage traditions among royalty and nobles...where these traditions come from).
But what if the parent does not agree? Aren't you glad you asked before you went and caused huge problems? Perhaps you can resolve the concern OR start planning your wedding to not include the in-laws.
Here's the deal: this is subtle sexism. Or, as I like to call it, subversive sexism. This poor little women need your social justice warriors to intervene on their behalves because they are soooo so very weak and dumb and cannot decide for themselves if they want a traditional process with a respectful husband who wants to put in effort to prove he cherishes the love of his life. It's romantic. Some women love it.
Here's a thought!!!!! How about asking the women themselves what they want? Gasp! Who would have thought that a woman could think for herself without a social justice warrior telling her how she should think. Shocking to even entertain the idea that women may think for themselves, I know. (Hint: SJWs just cannot STAND the notion that a woman my chose to be a stay at home mom or desire traditional family values and customs.)
👆
All of this.
Of course any woman who CHOOSES traditional values is a traitor to the extreme SJW/Feminist cause.... Because reasons.
Originally posted by Surtur
I will have you know those "reasons" are very good reasons. They are traitors because they allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the patriarchy into thinking they want traditional values.
And I will have you know that you are both overgeneralising AND it implies that the women you are fighting for are idiots who need others to make decisions for them, which makes me question who is worse.
(Lol, fun little exchange 😛 )
Originally posted by Surtur
I don't fight for women cuz we're all equal as human beings and it would be sexist if I did.
I'll fight, but I fight for the innocent, and those who cannot fight for themselves, for the people who only desire peace. What race or gender those people are is meaningless to that.
After all, I'm pretty sure we all bleed red at the end of the day. And this is true for all people, when we are sad, do we not weep? And when we are happy, do we not smile?
Originally posted by dadudemon
So it's sexist for following tradition of old people?
It is sexist, because it treats women as property. See examples:
Originally posted by dadudemon
They want the respect of the man who is going to take their daughter away and they want to see if he is going to respect their daughter enough to take care of her.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So it can be scary to give your daughter away to a man you barely know. So they set up these old traditions to help protect their daughter and give themselves a bit more assurance than nothing.
Women have agency. They are not property that can be given or taken away. They are not kept. Their families do not need assurances that they will be properly cared for. They are grown-ups and can make their own decisions. They do not need to be infantilized.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're not the one marrying into this family, I am.
You are not marrying into her family, she is marrying into yours.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If he puts the effort in to follow the old tradition, he's probably going to try a bit harder in the marriage, too.
Tell that to all of the conservatives with "traditional marriages" that have a higher divorce rate than everyone else.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But what if the parent does not agree?
Their approval is neither desired, nor required. They do not have to marry you. It is not up to them.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'll fight, but I fight for the innocent, and those who cannot fight for themselves, for the people who only desire peace. What race or gender those people are is meaningless to that.After all, I'm pretty sure we all bleed red at the end of the day. And this is true for all people, when we are sad, do we not weep? And when we are happy, do we not smile?
Sexist pig, I bet you hold open doors for ladies as well.
Originally posted by Surtur
I also still have to ask if a father giving away the bride at the wedding is sexist?
Yes. Again, the tradition is from the time that women were chattel. Look at the expression "giver her away." The daughter was the property of the father, and he literally gave her away to another man, her husband.
Originally posted by Surtur
How is it not both? That they are marrying into each others families? Do not say it is because the woman usually takes the mans last name please. Speaking of that, is that also sexist?
Again, the tradition is from the time that women were chattel. The woman takes the surname of her husband, because she is property being transferred from her family of origin to the family of her husband. That is why a woman "marries into" a family, and a man does not.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Yes. Again, the tradition is from the time that women were chattel. Look at the expression "giver her away." The daughter was the property of the father, and he literally gave her away to another man, her husband.
Okay, so I have known women that were proud to be given away by their fathers at their wedding. I have to ask: were they just brainwashed by the patriarchy?
Again, the tradition is from the time that women were chattel. The woman takes the surname of her husband, because she is property being transferred from her family of origin to the family of her husband. That is why a woman "marries into" a family, and a man does not.
Okay so...are you saying that DDM is not marrying into her family because he seems to be a proponent of asking the father, etc? Since you say it is because of tradition that men do not marry into a family, but obviously you seem to find these traditions sexist.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is sexist, because it treats women as property. See examples:
Oh, so your opinion, which is factually incorrect to those who follow that tradition, triumphs what families want to do?
Good.
Thanks for showing your bias.
What you liked to cut out was the reciprocal relationship. Obviously, two married people take care of each other (nice tactful edit of my post to cut that part out, bub) but in the tradition, the man needs to prove more publicly that he will take care of his wife. Why? Lots of things. But lets focus on one:
You know, pregnancy, child birth, children. You know that stuff? The stuff you forgot about? Yeeeeaaah, that stuff. Yeah, you forgot about it, didn't you?
Poor ol' PoE! Forgot about vaginas again. 🙁
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Women have agency. They are not property that can be given or taken away. They are not kept. Their families do not need assurances that they will be properly cared for. They are grown-ups and can make their own decisions. They do not need to be infantilized.
You're wrong. They do need to be taken care of. Have you ever been part of a healthy relationship? It seems like you haven't. The idea that two people take care of each other seems to escape you.
Of course, the notion that men are more likely to commit crimes and criminal violence also escapes you. Also, the fact that women get pregnant and do things like nursing seems to escape you. Yes, passing your daughter off to go live with another man (and who's to say they will move into a home that she paid for or he paid for: it doesn't matter. So go ahead and skip that argument before you try to make it) that you barely know can be scary and there are many unknowns. Trying to come up with a custom that can help, even if just placebo, assuage those concerns is helpful which is why this tradition doesn't die even in countries with horribly shitty "feminists" who are actually sexist wolves pretending to be female advocates.
Also, do you talk to...any heterosexual women who are not extremists? I mean...any at all?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You are not marrying into her family, she is marrying into yours.
Oh, really? Guess I better cancel all holidays, birthdays, and celebrations with them. Guess I better stop concerning myself with their well-being. Guess I better stop sending them surprise gifts and holiday gifts through the mail. Guess I better uninvite them to the wedding. Guess I better not attend church with them when I visit. Guess I better not do chores when I stay with them. Guess I better not escort my future mother in law, at night, through shitty neighborhoods when she visits a particular part of town that has known muggers. You know, that stuff, where I make my life part of theirs and theirs part of mine.
Luckily, I have a clueless man on the internet to let me know that a woman is marrying into my family and that I am not marrying into hers. Luckily, you cleared up my confusion where where I thought we married into each other's families. Whew, thank you very much, good sir, for clearing up my ignorance! Boy, am I blessed you're around! Yippeee!!
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Tell that to all of the conservatives with "traditional marriages" that have a higher divorce rate than everyone else.
Sooooo, you're trying to move the argument to a US "conservatives" vs. "liberals" debate? Nice. This trick probably works on dumber people, for sure. You might even be called clever for trying to do this.
How does that data look for devote religious people? What does it look like for people with similar education and income attainment (apples to apples)? If you want to make this argument, make your argument but make it nuanced: I'll read it and respond.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Their approval is neither desired, nor required. They do not have to marry you. It is not up to them.
Yes, yes, because all women, as you're trying to paint them, do not care what their parents think. They do not want to involve their parents in their life-long commitment to a man. They will make those decisions on their own. These women have no intentions to be part of their parents lives, at all.
Based on that amazing revelation of yours, too, these same women DEFINITELY will not talk to their friends about it, as well. They will not consider their friends' input, as well. Because women don't care about what anyone around them thinks. Most especially their parents! You have women completely figured out.
I should go to you more often for advice on how to interact with women! You're like...an expert! If I had talked with you sooner and gotten your opinions, why...I wouldn't even BE with a woman, right now! I'd be single! Perfect! Just what I wanted: to be single and not madly in love with a woman I deeply care about! Gosh, you're the best!
Originally posted by Surtur
Okay so...are you saying that DDM is not marrying into her family because he seems to be a proponent of asking the father, etc? Since you say it is because of tradition that men do not marry into a family, but obviously you seem to find these traditions sexist.
Yes, I'm very curious as well!
I don't even care about the name thing, of course, and we both talked about it: she wants to take my last name because of "tradition" and she thinks it is romantic to have a family like that. She also wants the wedding, father walking her down the aisle, her parents asking my mother if she approves of their daughter, etc. You know, the whole traditional thing where the parents respect each other, the children respect each set of parents, bla bla bla. Stupid stuff. Lame stupid stuff that she wants. But who the **** cares about what she wants! Some people want to think and feel for her. They want to force her to think and feel their way so she can be freer and...think...for herself? Holy shit, even typing out their logic is atrocious. It's super super shitty and sexist, the logic is.
I guess I should not be open minded and pretend she doesn't want it and FORCE her to take my last name like the Lordly Patriarchal Shithead I am, right?
Funny that the first thing my highly liberal 34 year old (at the time) hard core Hillary voting wife asked me to do before we got married was ask her dad for her hand out of respect. Can't wait to show her this article. Lol.
Tho I feel like she would likely point out that (likely) clickbait cosmo opinion pieces aren't really the best source of topics for intellectual discussion.
Of course going to a woman's parents for permission to marry their daughter isn't sexist, and indeed it has nothing to do with the woman. If a man is uncomfortable marrying a woman without the approval of the father and mother, then the daughter rightfully shouldn't get a say. It's up to him whether or not that matters to him and would obstruct his marrying of her. Don't get me wrong, I give literally not a single shit about whether or not a boyfriend or girlfriend's parents approve of my relationship with their child, but there's nothing wrong with a guy who does.
However, if you only ask the father, because only his opinion matters to you? That might be somewhat sexist.