Battle of the Bishes: Vaylin vs. Zannah

The_Tempest Senior Member

Takes place inside the Temple on Dromund Kaas. All out fight. Peak iterations.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Can people provide reasons, if not arguments?

Haschwalth Senior Member

A chained Vaylin is capable of casually breaking senyas neck, the strongest of all zakuulian Knights. Senya is most likely above Satele/Marr.

Emperordmb LSDMB

I have Vaylin higher than Zannah on a power list, but as to how they specifically match up against each other, Vaylin is uniquely psychologically and emotionally ****ed up for someone of her power level, so IMO if Zannah can hit her with a spell of madness its all ogre, but if Vaylin somehow overpowers Zannah before she gets that chance Vaylin wins.

TenebrousWay God Tier Vaylin

Vaylin is too powerful even if I like Zannah far more.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I have Vaylin higher than Zannah on a power list, but as to how they specifically match up against each other, Vaylin is uniquely psychologically and emotionally ****ed up for someone of her power level, so IMO if Zannah can hit her with a spell of madness its all ogre, but if Vaylin somehow overpowers Zannah before she gets that chance Vaylin wins.

So you think Zannah's only hope would be asymmetric warfare? What puts Vaylin above Zannah, and by how much?
Conversely, wouldn't Vaylin's superior power enable her to withstand such eldrith powers from Zannah?

Emperordmb LSDMB

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So you think Zannah's only hope would be asymmetric warfare? What puts Vaylin above Zannah, and by how much?

I'm not really the Vaylin expert, but Arcann on his own has some pretty impressive feats such as TKing the shit out of KOTFE Outlander and shielding himself from spirit Valk's lightning for several seconds, and even chained Vaylin scales above him in Force power, and while I have Bane and Zannah above Arcann, unchained Vaylin scales above him to such an extent that he's not even remotely comparable to her, so I'd say she'd fall somewhere along the Banite gap between Bane and Plagueis, not certain enough to place her in a specific place along that gap for certain but I can say I have her above Zannah overall on a list.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Conversely, wouldn't Vaylin's superior power enable her to withstand such eldrith powers from Zannah?

I don't think it's a question of power with Zannah's sorcery at all. Upon studying Zannah's sorcery and having personally trained her for decades with Bane himself having access to knowledge from Darth Revan's holocron, Freedon Nadd's holocron, Sorzus Syn's holocron, Andeddu's holocron, and the Brotherhood's own knowledge (which say what you will about the Brotherhood but their knowledge of telepathy was actually fairly advanced with Bane having learned the memory walk ability from them, Githany having learned mind meld from them, each master in the brotherhood being highly mentally trained etc), and with knowledge of all these sources with plenty of telepathic and sorcery knowledge, including the source material for Zannah's sorcery, upon looking for a counter to that sorcery for two decades Bane concluded the only real defense for Zannah's sorcery is sheer willpower, not some special technique, and not raw force power.

NewGuy01 perpetual

Well, to be fair, just being far more powerful than Zannah wasnt exactly an option for Bane.

Haschwalth Senior Member

I would say, Vaylins willpower is quite high, as she managed to control the out poor of energy when she was unleashing(Breaking her chains), if not she would of died.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Interesting.

I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)

So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?

Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?

Emperordmb LSDMB

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Interesting.
I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)
So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?
Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?

I'll get back to you later. I'm a bit busy with homework and a birthday message for someone atm.

Haschwalth Senior Member

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Interesting.
I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)
So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?
Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?

if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann,

He also killed Valkorian.........
Nah, HoT is the portrayed character to defeat them, Valkorian possessing a non force sensitive, then getting their body ready to receive his spirit, yeah no......
He needs someone with a bit more midichlorians fyi.

And yeah, the fact he could normally Mentally dominate her, would put Vaylin out of Zannahs range.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Originally posted by Haschwalth
He also killed Valkorian.........
Nah, HoT is the portrayed character to defeat them, Valkorian possessing a non force sensitive, then getting their body ready to receive his spirit, yeah no......
He needs someone with a bit more midichlorians fyi.

?
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?
Not really: wasn't a lesser Valk able to imbue non Force sensitive guards with Force sensitive properties?

I agree it doesn't mesh with standard SW lore, but little of SWTOR does.

And yeah, the fact he could normally Mentally dominate her, would put Vaylin out of Zannahs range.

I can see an argument being made for it.

NewGuy01 perpetual

There's pretty solid evidence pointing towards the Knight being the canon class for the Outlander. You know, the whole vision Scourge had about the Knight taking Vitiate's crown and wielding his power, for starters.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Originally posted by NewGuy01
There's pretty solid evidence pointing towards the Knight being the canon class for the Outlander. You know, the whole vision Scourge had about the Knight taking Vitiate's crown and wielding his power, for starters.

Valk didn't wear a crown. Your argument is invalid.

Joking aside, has there been confirmation that the Jedi Knight is the "canon" class for the Outlander?

Haschwalth Senior Member

Originally posted by The_Tempest
?
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?
Not really: wasn't a lesser Valk able to imbue non Force sensitive guards with Force sensitive properties?
I agree it doesn't mesh with standard SW lore, but little of SWTOR does.

Swtor developers are lazy, so they let the non force sensitives pull off the same feats, as the sensitives. It sort of limits the force sensitive feats tbh.

Yes, but he needed someone strong enough to hold his Spirit, that's why he had to toughen up the Outlander. Just look at Nihilus, his body couldn't hold his raw power, so he shed it. And, he saw, Vaylin/Arcann/Thexan as his children so, he had some sort of connection to them, they just didn't live up to his standards. So, he possess the outlander instead.

Haschwalth Senior Member

It's futher backed, when Valkorian allows the outlander to use his power against Arcann, and His body is screwed from the affects, literally passess out like 20 mins later.

TenebrousWay God Tier Vaylin

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?

He's not exactly invalid but we're going to need to concile his defeat by the smuggler with his trashing of the HoTlander in the early chapters.

NewGuy01 perpetual

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Valk didn't wear a crown. Your argument is invalid.
Joking aside, has there been confirmation that the Jedi Knight is the "canon" class for the Outlander?

Only that he's the class shown in all the promotional material. Again, though, it's pretty clear cut from a story perspective; in his visions, Scourge saw the Knight kill Vitiate, take his crown, and wield his power. The Outlander wielded Vitiate's power, the Outlander killed Vitiate, and the Outlander now rules his kingdom. How could it possibly be any of the other classes? If it were, the Knight wouldn't have accomplished a single one of the three things that we were told he would.

UCanShootMyNova Senior Member

Visions have been known to be wrong before. 🙂

Who wins?