Darth Maul vs Darth Malgus

Started by DarthAnt665 pages

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sorry, I don't know why I thought Encyclopedia.

Ah, yeah, I remember that. I saw it proposed, though, that while both parties did assault the Fortress, only one strike team actually followed the path presented in the False Emperor flashpoint, therefore meaning only four protagonists actually fought Malgus. The other group was perhaps involved in a related but different mission either on or around the Fortress (isn't there even a battle of Ilum space battle from Galactic Starfighter?). In that respect, consistency with the flashpoint missions is maintained. Obviously, otherwise, we're dealing with an operation, which just isn't the case here. This also operates under our mutual assumption that it is the protagonists actually completing these flashpoints and operations, also.

Originally posted by Azronger
I know it was already falling, but do you know how much energy it would be required to even alter it's trajectory like that? Millions of times more than it would take to collapse a ****ing building. Galen also literally wrenched it down at the very end.

This is a wild speculation on your part and I disagree with it. First, this was an event of extreme focus:

With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

I see an element of oneness in this showing:

There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.

Focus.

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn't hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

It was like as if Marek had become one with the Star Destroyer, forging a powerful bond with the object in order to influence its course.

And when the deed ended, it left Marek completely drained:

Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice's feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

Taken from Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

- not a combat-applicable showing in the slightest. You cannot expect Marek to bring that much power into bear in a fight because he wouldn't have time for it and would be exposing himself to assault [should he try].

Second, Marek's objective was to alter the trajectory of the falling Star Destroyer. Not once, he had to lift millions of tons of mass. Even if we assume that this deed was more tedious than that of collapsing two buildings whose debris entrapped Darth Malgus, it cannot be millions of times more tedious because in both instances [gravity] did the heavy-lifting. In-fact, buildings in Star Wars significantly vary in size and durability and many literally dwarf that Star Destroyer in size. It is unwise to issue a blanket statement that Marek's showing is millions of times more tedious than collapsing a building; seriously do not.

Originally posted by Azronger
I wasn't referring to TFU I, but TFU II, where Vader is literally toying with and is able to dominate Galen's clone who is even more powerful than the original. This was before Vader grew immensely in power.

I would like to see evidence of these claims.

Even if Darth Vader was becoming stronger over time, Marek's showing should not be used to scale him or assess his day-to-day abilities. Marek's showing is a one-off kind of thing; not something that he could replicate on a daily basis in any situation.

Originally posted by Azronger
Placing Vader at building level is uttely dishonest and would require insane levels of lowballing. The fact that you have a random Jedi scrub from the TOR era on his tier is very telling.

Really now?

When Darth Vader collapsed a building (i.e. Cathedral), he had to exert quiet a bit and lived to tell the tale due to the will of the Force.

Collapsing a building [with Telekinetic abilities] is a high-end showing even for the likes of Darth Vader. In-fact, some buildings are too large to collapse [with Telekinetic abilities] in one go.

A random Jedi scrub? Just because that Jedi Master is lacking in backstory, doesn't implies that he was a scrub. You do not see a random Jedi scrub putting up a fight against Darth Malgus or collapsing buildings in a fight. That Jedi Master was clearly a force to be reckoned with. The fact that Darth Malgus tackled such a foe in spite of being mortally wounded [decades before his prime], should tell you something about his power on the other hand.

When has Darth Maul collapsed a (proper) building in a fight or otherwise? Not once even in his prime. The best we have seen from him is pulling a Shuttle from the edge of a cliff which is slightly better than the showing of Savage Opress. To Darth Malgus, a Force-user of this much strength is a minor issue.

Originally posted by Azronger
Fulminiss disintegrating a city is pure legend. It's never confirmed if it actually happened. Why are you taking that as legit but writing off Galen's feat on the basis off "he didn't actually bring it down" when no one claimed he did, but it still being an absolutely monsterous feat, and the pretending Vader is building-level?

FYI:

A legend is a very old and popular story that may be true. (Collins English Dictionary)

It is a piece of information that establish the power of Lord Fulminiss. This guy is openly credited for his expertise in the arts of 'mass extermination' and acknowledged as one of the most powerful Sith Sorcerers (ever). Even if his legend is half-true, it still suggests a showing that is massively ahead of anything we have seen from Darth Vader (destruction-wise). Nonetheless, Lord Fulminiss pulled it off in a fit of rage.

Marek's showing is a one-off and Darth Vader is building-level. I stick by my position.

You do not see a random Jedi scrub putting up a fight against Darth Malgus (...). The fact that Darth Malgus tackled such a foe in spite of being mortally wounded [decades before his prime], should tell you something about his power on the other hand.

Malgus is great because he beat a Jedi that put up a fight against him?

The **** is LeGenD on about that mong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Really now?

When Darth Vader collapsed a building (i.e. Cathedral), he had to exert quiet a bit and lived to tell the tale due to the will of the Force.

Collapsing a building [with Telekinetic abilities] is a high-end showing even for the likes of Darth Vader. In-fact, some buildings are too large to collapse [with Telekinetic abilities] in one go.

Eh, Vader wasn't really in peak condition there. Plus given he's underneath the Cathedral in a labyrinth type of place, which suggest the building is pretty huge, so bringing it down is pretty great.

Then again building level is pretty vague, seeing as they all range from various sizes.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Malgus is great because he beat a Jedi that put up a fight against him?

You have completely missed my point.

The Jedi Master in question cannot be hand-waved as a 'random Jedi scrub' because his feats and performance against Darth Malgus imply otherwise. Darth Malgus casually dismissed majority of the Jedi he came across. Only Satele Shan, Ven Zallow and Aryn Leener managed to put up a fight. In-fact, only Aryn Leener managed to put up a good fight. The rest fell short in-spite of their abilities.

Both Satele Shan and Aryn Leener demonstrated vastly superior abilities in the Force than Darth Maul by the way. The Jedi Master in question as well.

You completely missed my point lol. That the Master was able to hold his own against Malgus is a good feat for him, not for Malgus.

😂

Tbh after reading about that feat from that one nameless Jedi Master and then digging through in research for other feats, organizations and the like, making general RTs on em. My stance on The Force has radically changed overall. Probably the only one who views as such.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both Satele Shan and Aryn Leener demonstrated vastly superior abilities in the Force than Darth Maul by the way. The Jedi Master in question as well.

My arse. Maul as a teenager was gonna collapse barracks capable of housing hundreds of beings; that's infinitely a better feat than collapsing two buildings that were already unstable from bombardment.

Originally posted by MythLord
My arse. Maul as a teenager was gonna collapse barracks capable of housing hundreds of beings; that's infinitely a better feat than collapsing two buildings that were already unstable from bombardment.

This is the quote:

Its circuitous innards exposed, the combat vibroblade rested on a low table, alongside a small tool kit. Electrodriver in hand, Maul was working feverishly on the knife’s ultrasonic vibration generator, intent on overriding the built-in arrestor to supply the blade with greater slashing power. If he wasn’t permitted to use the Force, then he would use everything short of it to satisfy the rage inside him; to gut every living thing he encountered during the coming Gora solo. Bathe in the blood he would shed, feast on warm flesh… Merely imagining it set his fingers trembling, and abruptly the tool slipped from its tenuous hold in the socket and stabbed deeply into the palm of his opposite hand, opening a small wound and bursting the dam of his pent-up emotion. Maul’s clenched right hand slammed down on the table, shattering its surface, and the vibroblade took flight, nearly impaling itself in his head. Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him.

Taken from Darth Maul: Restraint

Force Scream being the key word here. Force Scream can produce powerful ripples in the Force that can inflict great harm to objects caught in its wave, if it comes to pass.

And we don't know what kind of structure it is and how big. The label "barracks" is not sufficient to quantify the thing. Barracks vary in composition and size much like any structure.

It is also possible that only a part of the Barracks [would have] collapsed since the word "around him" is in the description.

On the other hand, the feat of the Jedi Master in question is somewhat quantifiable. It is apparent from the description that he collapsed buildings (2 of them) [simultaneously] with a two-handed gesture (much like Darth Vader). These buildings were constructed using durasteel (and duracrete) and they left a "mountain of rubble" on the ground of which only a small part engulfed Darth Malgus (a pocket).

I am sorry my friend but the Jedi Master in question here has demonstrated level of strength and command of the Force that you expect from exceptionally powerful Force-users. Not even at the height of his power, Darth Maul has an equivalent showing with his abilities in the Force.

I wish that this scene had a visualization but I think any smart person would not have an issue in visualizing the sheer scale of it.

There is virtually no comparison between the two.

Assuming this is SOD Maul;

Physicality:

Strength: Maul should be able to match Malgus' strength blade to blade. Even if Malgus is stronger, it's not by much. I don't see physical strength being the main factor of deciding the fight. If Maul can stand up to Grievous, he can stand up to Malgus. Where Zallow's punch dislodged a tooth, Maul would be capable of much worse.

Speed: Maul easily. If Zallow can press forward and break Malgus' momentum, so too should SOD Maul who Sidious couldn't immediately speed blitz from what I remember.

Maul's speed is a pretty big factor here.

Durability: Malgus although the only way Maul's going down is if you pierce him through the heart or remove his head so not much of an issue.

Overall: Maul. He can match Malgus' strength, surpasses his speed, and has the durability to stay in the fight with Malgus.

Force:

Maul can cope with Malgus' telekinesis and vice versa. Maul's telekinesis may be a little stronger due to his feats in SOD although Malgus has Force lightning on his side. Maul may get a telekinetic grip on Malgus though.

I don't see the lightning being the winning card but it can break Maul's momentum and has a chance to frack with his cybernetic legs should Maul lose his grip on the Dark Saber, in which case he'd be dino charging at Malgus.

Overall: I'd say equal due to their showings. Maul may have better telekinesis with Malgus having Force lightning.

Sabers:

As previously mentioned, Maul can meet Malgus' strength with his own and utilize his speed advantage which would prevent Malgus' formula from being fully effective.

It'd take awhile, but I see Maul being able to eventually break through Malgus' defenses in sabers only.

Overall: Maul. He has the skill to contend with Malgus and has his physicality boosting his formula.

Verdict:

I feel like Maul would take an early advantage through his speed and his equal if not greater strength would be able to deal with any Djem So counter offensives that Malgus dishes out. While I would favor Maul as the better duelist, I feel they'd both start using their Force abilities where Maul would be able to deal with what ever Malgus decides to pick up and throw at him using the Force and eventually break through his defenses either by landing hits with the Dark Saber or getting a telekinetic grip on Malgus.

Apparently Maul's reacting faster than a Jedi with perceptions that could literally witness the hyperspace jump of a ship so that it appeared to stretch infinitely in the space of a nano second. A Jedi who got far more powerful than that in the same novel before Oneness!Malgus stomped her contemptuously in the ending.

He's also apparently pulling feats out of his ass that compare to launching a six-car train with a mere gesture whilst running in the opposite direction. Again, before Leneer got much more powerful and still getting stomped by a Malgus who wasn't even remotely bloodlusted.

Not to mention being more powerful than the likes of Marr, who was faster than Darth Lachriss could even perceive with Force augmented vision.

Or being clearly more powerful than Satele Shan, who could blitz through hex droids faster than Eldox Ax could hear, and crush hex droids telekinetically despite the fact they could tank lightsabers.

Malgus is being heavily underrated in your comparison.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Apparently Maul's reacting faster than a Jedi with perceptions that could literally witness the hyperspace jump of a ship so that it appeared to stretch infinitely in the space of a nano second. A Jedi who got far more powerful than that in the same novel before Oneness!Malgus stomped her contemptuously in the ending.

He's also apparently pulling feats out of his ass that compare to launching a six-car train with a mere gesture whilst running in the opposite direction. Again, before Leneer got much more powerful and still getting stomped by a Malgus who wasn't even remotely bloodlusted.

Not to mention being more powerful than the likes of Marr, who was faster than Darth Lachriss could even perceive with Force augmented vision.

Or being clearly more powerful than Satele Shan, who could blitz through hex droids faster than Eldox Ax could hear, and crush hex droids telekinetically despite the fact they could tank lightsabers.

Malgus is being heavily underrated in your comparison.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Assuming this is SOD Maul;

Physicality:

Strength: Maul should be able to match Malgus' strength blade to blade. Even if Malgus is stronger, it's not by much. I don't see physical strength being the main factor of deciding the fight. If Maul can stand up to Grievous, he can stand up to Malgus. Where Zallow's punch dislodged a tooth, Maul would be capable of much worse.

Speed: Maul easily. If Zallow can press forward and break Malgus' momentum, so too should SOD Maul who Sidious couldn't immediately speed blitz from what I remember.

Maul's speed is a pretty big factor here.

Durability: Malgus although the only way Maul's going down is if you pierce him through the heart or remove his head so not much of an issue.

Overall: Maul. He can match Malgus' strength, surpasses his speed, and has the durability to stay in the fight with Malgus.

Force:

Maul can cope with Malgus' telekinesis and vice versa. Maul's telekinesis may be a little stronger due to his feats in SOD although Malgus has Force lightning on his side. Maul may get a telekinetic grip on Malgus though.

I don't see the lightning being the winning card but it can break Maul's momentum and has a chance to frack with his cybernetic legs should Maul lose his grip on the Dark Saber, in which case he'd be dino charging at Malgus.

Overall: I'd say equal due to their showings. Maul may have better telekinesis with Malgus having Force lightning.

Sabers:

As previously mentioned, Maul can meet Malgus' strength with his own and utilize his speed advantage which would prevent Malgus' formula from being fully effective.

It'd take awhile, but I see Maul being able to eventually break through Malgus' defenses in sabers only.

Overall: Maul. He has the skill to contend with Malgus and has his physicality boosting his formula.

Verdict:

I feel like Maul would take an early advantage through his speed and his equal if not greater strength would be able to deal with any Djem So counter offensives that Malgus dishes out. While I would favor Maul as the better duelist, I feel they'd both start using their Force abilities where Maul would be able to deal with what ever Malgus decides to pick up and throw at him using the Force and eventually break through his defenses either by landing hits with the Dark Saber or getting a telekinetic grip on Malgus.

Y'know, I came originally from the VS series community myself, but this... muh bro... This is cringey. And it ain't how we debate.

Originally posted by MythLord
Y'know, I came originally from the VS series community myself, but this... muh bro... This is cringey. And it ain't how we debate.

Breaking things down into categories isn't exclusive to VS on YouTube.

But yeah, I sorta did undervalue Malgus.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Breaking things down into categories isn't exclusive to VS on YouTube.

But yeah, I sorta did undervalue Malgus.

You used the stereotypical VS series format and arguments. And nah, you didn't undervalue Malgus; Maul can beat him. 🙂

Sabers possibly goes Maul's way. He loses Force and all-out

Originally posted by MythLord
You used the stereotypical VS series format and arguments. And nah, you didn't undervalue Malgus; Maul can beat him. 🙂

True.

Really? Most of the undervaluing was the Force.

Now that I think of it, SOD Maul should be able to replicate Satele's feat with the cliff considering him pulling down a shuttle while injured and his numerous feats in SOD.

I wish we would've gotten to see SOD animated so we could see Maul's fight with Mace and Aayla better.

This would've changed a lot of things.