Originally posted by Azronger
Um, no it's referring to his whole rule, and the reason I am ignoring his power-growth is because it in no way means the quote says he is the most powerful.
He literally made the Sith Empire more powerful via his rule and they entered a golden age due to it. His being declared the most powerful of the most powerful also shits on the idea that he only retained his rule via strategy. But let's not pretend every competent Sith does the same. 😂
Originally posted by AncientPower
He literally made the Sith Empire more powerful via his rule and they entered a golden age due to it.
Yes... because he was a good ruler.
His being declared the most powerful of the most powerful also shits on the idea that he only retained his rule via strategy. But let's not pretend every competent Sith does the same.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't mean he was the most skilled or most knowledgeable with the Force, or even that he was the most powerful in the Force. Him being the Dark Lord of the Sith makes him the most powerful being by default - politically. And that's all the quote is really saying.
Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead.
Tales of the Jedi: The Golden Age of the Sith 2: Funeral for a Dark Lord (Publisher's Summary)
"The Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful." - It's an accolade for Ragnos' title, not for Ragnos himself.
Also, the quote is a publisher's summary, which is essentially the equivalent of a blurb at the back of a book. I remember you being very adamant in arguing ways to dismiss Plagueis' accolade, but now you're using publisher quotes for Ragnos... Do I sense a double standard?
Except you're purposefully ignoring the fact that power was also a significant part of his rule, as all of those quotes state. He, fact, has the best accolades of anybody up until his time. His power has been described as 'titanic' and more than that, amongst all the ancient Sith spirits he acts as the superior.
All comparisons, in terms of the very limited ones we can make, all point to Ragnos as the top dog.
All blurbs are subjective, and if there's a reason to reconsider their veracity (I.E. that Valk's feats sh!t all over Plagueis'😉 then they're hardly the infallible facts you'd like them to be.
Originally posted by AncientPower
[B]Except you're purposefully ignoring the fact that power was also a significant part of his rule, as all of those quotes state.
I am ignoring it because it doesn't mean he was the most powerful ever.
He, fact, has the best accolades of anybody up until his time. His power has been described as 'titanic' and more than that, amongst all the ancient Sith spirits he acts as the superior.All comparisons, in terms of the very limited ones we can make, all point to Ragnos as the top dog.
This is an entirely different argument. Given that you didn't address half of the things I said, I assume it's a concession.
Anyway, not sure how you're equating "titanic" with "most powerful ever." Makes no sense.
And what're you referring to when you say he acts as the best amongst the Sith spirits?
All blurbs are subjective, and if there's a reason to reconsider their veracity (I.E. that Valk's feats sh!t all over Plagueis'😉 then they're hardly the infallible facts you'd like them to be.
I'm aware.
So him being so titanically powerful, terrifying strong and intensely intelligent isn't the reason he's the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time? Okay, makes sense. (BTW you're making the same retarded argument that anti-Sheev debaters used to use all the time, ain't that beautiful.)
Freedon Nadd deferring to him, and Ragnos making all the decisions among the Council of Sith spirits is pretty indicative.
You realise that Ragnos returning from the grave on literally the other side of the galaxy nearly gave Odan-Urr cardiac arrest? More than that, it required the absorption of numerous powerful dark side sites such as Korriban, Yavin IV, etc., to fuel his spirit's return. We also know that even all of that energy wasn't enough because Ragnos' spirit returned with nowhere near his full strength, despite Tavion acting as a host.
Muur really doesn't have much of anything to compare.
Originally posted by AncientPower
So him being so titanically powerful, terrifying strong and intensely intelligent isn't the reason he's the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith up until his time? Okay, makes sense. (BTW you're making the same retarded argument that anti-Sheev debaters used to use all the time, ain't that beautiful.)
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Did I ever state Ragnos wasn't the greatest of all time? No, I did not. I accept that he is and never expressed beliefs that'd go against that notion. You've yet to establish he's the most powerful ever, though.
Freedon Nadd deferring to him, and Ragnos making all the decisions among the Council of Sith spirits is pretty indicative.
Quote, please.
You realise that Ragnos returning from the grave on literally the other side of the galaxy nearly gave Odan-Urr cardiac arrest?
I do, kinda like Savage Opress did to Dooku; Maul to Yoda, Anakin and co.; ESB Luke to Palpatine etc. Shall I lay down more examples as to why it is moronic to use disturbances in the Force as indications of one's power in the Force?
More than that, it required the absorption of numerous powerful dark side sites such as Korriban, Yavin IV, etc., to fuel his spirit's return. We also know that even all of that energy wasn't enough because Ragnos' spirit returned with nowhere near his full strength, despite Tavion acting as a host.Muur really doesn't have much of anything to compare.
If you manage to quantify all that into telekinetic potency for example, you might have a point. Until then, it's a completely arbitrary feat given that no one else in the mythos (to my knowledge) has anything similar.
So in other words, you're arguing semantics? These are Dark Lords of the Sith, him being the greatest and most powerful is essentially one in the same.
I'm sure it's also why both Kressh and Sadow know that even Ragnos' spirit could kill either of them.
Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
The Scepter drained the energy of Yavin IV Temple focal points, just one of which was used by Dorsk 81, Kyp and 28 others to telekinetically launch a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system like 'twigs in a storm'.
Originally posted by AncientPower
So in other words, you're arguing semantics? These are Dark Lords of the Sith, him being the greatest and most powerful is essentially one in the same.
If you manage to prove that greatest = most powerful in this context, you'll have a point.
I'm sure it's also why both Kressh and Sadow know that even Ragnos' spirit could kill either of them.
Kressh and Sadow =/= Muur
Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits,_led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.
And what proof do you have that Muur was amongst those spirits? Can you name anyone of note out of that bunch?
The Scepter drained the energy of Yavin IV Temple focal points, just one of which was used by Dorsk 81, Kyp and 28 others to telekinetically launch a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system like 'twigs in a storm'.
Yes, while in a Battlemeld between thrity individuals. How much the nexus contributed is unquantifiable.
Also, concession accepted on the disturbance in the Force thing.
Originally posted by Azronger
If you manage to prove that greatest = most powerful in this context, you'll have a point.
In the context of the Sith, and given Kreia's canonically accurate praise, it's self-evident. 😬
Originally posted by Azronger
Kressh and Sadow =/= Muur
It's a better estimation of power amongst ancient Sith than Muur has. 😉
Originally posted by Azronger
And what proof do you have that Muur was amongst those spirits? Can you name anyone of note out of that bunch?
Muur wasn't, he was in the Muur Talisman. Freedon Nadd however, was a member of the 'Sith Council'.
Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, while in a Battlemeld between thirty individuals. How much the nexus contributed is unquantifiable.
Your favorite term apparently. Oh and given that the text explicitly states that he fails utterly twice, and then only succeeds when he draws fully on the other Jedi and focuses it through the Temple, is it successful.
Noting that this is just one amongst many of the Temples Tavion drained. She also drained power from the Valley of the Dark Lords, the remains of power on Byss left over by Sheev and Co., the Cave on Dagobah, and more.
Any which way you try to wiggle your way out of it, it's an implication of power for Ragnos that Muur has absolutely nothing to compare with.
Originally posted by Azronger
Also, concession accepted on the disturbance in the Force thing.
That was hardly the crux of my stance. Desperate much? 😂
Originally posted by AncientPower
In the context of the Sith, and given Kreia's canonically accurate praise, it's self-evident. 😬
Nope, Ragnos' reign was named the Golden Age of the Sith due to him being a good ruler, not the most powerful in the Force. Greatness =/= power.
It's a better estimation of power amongst ancient Sith than Muur has. 😉
Given that Sadow and Kressh don't scale to Muur in any way, it's also worthless.
Muur wasn't, he was in the Muur Talisman. Freedon Nadd however, was a member of the 'Sith Council'.
So Muur wasn't there, making that also worthless.
Your favorite term apparently. Oh and given that the text explicitly states that he fails utterly twice, and then only succeeds when he draws fully on the other Jedi and focuses it through the Temple, is it successful.
It's my favorite term to use when my opponent throws around unquantifiable feats, yeah. Speaking of which, the power of the nexus is still unquantifiable. What you're saying doesn't change that.
Noting that this is just one amongst many of the Temples Tavion drained. She also drained power from the Valley of the Dark Lords, the remains of power on Byss left over by Sheev and Co., the Cave on Dagobah, and more.Any which way you try to wiggle your way out of it, it's an implication of power for Ragnos that Muur has absolutely nothing to compare with.
True, but it's also completely arbitrary and can't be scaled to not just Muur, but any other Star Wars character given that no one else has anything like it. I might as well cite Muur being > Vong Krayt as an implication of power that Ragnos "has absolutely nothing to compare with."
That was hardly the crux of my stance. Desperate much? 😂
Yes, I must be totally desperate, having forced two concessions out of you.