Originally posted by KingD19
You realize the Balrog is made of fire, smoke, and shadow right? There's nothing for Drogon to bite. Gandalf only fought it off because they were the same type of angel and roughly around the same power level. He had to use magic to actually hurt Durin's Bane.
Well then i dont see a clear winner.
Durin's Bane has no way to hurt Drogon neither.
Also Drogon has wings and can keep distance. OP didnt limit flight.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And how exactly will Balrog hurt Drogon?
How do you think? The Balrog can generate enormous hellfire weapons. It starts with a massive flaming scimitar and proceeds from there.
The balrog also has flight, and has wings, and is actually more powerfully built compared to Drogon. It has arms. And trying to bite something made of shadow and flame is.... not going to do anything to it. Gandalf's powers only worked on it because he is also a Maiar who's power diametrically opposes it.
Originally posted by KingD19
You realize the Balrog is made of fire, smoke, and shadow right? There's nothing for Drogon to bite. Gandalf only fought it off because they were the same type of angel and roughly around the same power level. He had to use magic to actually hurt Durin's Bane.
Physical attacks (at least from magic weapons) hurt the Balrog. You don't need to be a Maia to hurt one. And Westeros dragons are beings of magic. I've little doubt their bites would damage a Balrog.
Of course, with that said, the Balrog does win this. Drogon's fire won't do anything and when he comes down to bite the Balrog thrashes him.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero'
How do you think? The Balrog can generate enormous hellfire weapons. It starts with a massive flaming scimitar and proceeds from there.The balrog also has flight, and has wings, and is actually more powerfully built compared to Drogon. It has arms. And trying to bite something made of shadow and flame is.... not going to do anything to it. Gandalf's powers only worked on it because he is also a Maiar who's power diametrically opposes it.
Except Dragons are immune to fire...So i don't see how any could hurt each other.
However I still support Drogon due to the wings and the size.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
'Except Dragons are immune to fire...So i don't see how any could hurt each other.
However I still support Drogon due to the wings and the size.
I contest that the flames of the Doom of Valyria did in fact kill every dragon within the freehold, as per World of Ice and Fire.
So no, complete fire immunity is patently false, or at the very least only applies to mundane fires such as the funeral pyre. Such a thing wouldn't really apply to mystical flames such as the flame of Udun, which supercede things such as the Thrangorodrim or the fires of Mt Doom. Udun's flame was used to shape even fire creatures such as Smaug and all other Dragons of Arda.
And as I mentioned above, the Balrogs are not small by any stretch, and are actually much more powerfully built if not larger than Drogon, plus the Balrogs all have wings and can fly, as was proven when they chased away Ungoliant.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Udun's flame was used to shape even fire creatures such as Smaug and all other Dragons of Arda.
No it wasn't. Dragons were created when Morgoth was chilling in Udun. And "flame of Udun" is simply a term Gandalf uses to refer to the Balrog basically it's calling him a demon from hell.
Also "winged speed" may simply be used as a descriptor for the speed rather than to suggest they literally flew. Though it's a moot point, at the Balrog in the films did have wings and that is what we are using.
Originally posted by ares834
No it wasn't. Dragons were created when Morgoth was chilling in Udun. And "flame of Udun" is simply a term Gandalf uses to refer to the Balrog basically it's calling him a demon from hell.
As in Hellfire, as in Morgoth's Flame Imperishable. It's a figure of speech for the most part, but Morgoth had to pour some of his own power into his creations and mutations to make them. Thats why come the time of say his confrontation with Ungoliant, or Fingolfin he is considerably depowered than when he was during the time of the Song.
Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But it's never called the "flame of Udun" or "Morgoth's Flame Imperishable". As far as I'm aware, Morgoth's power is never once referred to as a "mystical flame".
Well, in actuality it's a corrupted version of the Flame of Arnor/Secret fire/The Flame Imperishable, IE the flame of creation that is Eru's power. it exists in the heart of Ea, and is what comprises the souls of all things in creation, Valar and Maiar included. the Flame of Udun is merely Melkor's perversion of his own Flame.
Originally posted by ares834
No it's not. The Flame Imperishable is the power of creation which is something Tolkien has deliberately and repeatedly stated Melkor does not have. And I've seen nothing suggesting that souls are made from pieces of it.
Originally posted on the One Wiki and Tolkien GatewayThe Secret Fire seems to refer to that aspect of Eru Ilúvatar which is his Power of Creation. This power was with Ilúvatar at the very beginning, so when Melkor sought for it alone, it was in vain, for he could never find it because it was solely with Eru himself. Later, Eru set it (or an aspect of it) at the Heart of Arda."Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."
—Valaquenta, the Silmarillion.The Secret Fire was also described as being part of all Fëa, the soul of a living being or the spirit: it was that Gift which makes sentient beings capable of independent thought and will. Loosely, it could be taken as an alternate name of the Holy Spirit.
In The Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf the Grey referred to both the Secret Fire and the Flame of Anor at the Bridge of Khazad-dum when confronting the Balrog.
"You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
—The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 5: "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"Anor was a name for the Sun in the mythology, as well as a name for the True West (i.e. Valinor). Further, some have speculated that Gandalf said "flame of Anor" in reference to the fact that he wielded one of the Three Rings of Power, Narya. Thus it is uncertain if the flame of Anor was identical to the Secret Fire, but both it and The Secret Fire identified Gandalf as a servant of the Valar.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Secret_Fire
I'm pretty sure that covers it.
No it doesn't. That a wiki that can be edited by fans. Show me a passage where it states that it makes up the souls and minds of people. The only time such a thing is stated that I'm aware of is at the creation of the second world and it's only then that Eru grants it to others.
When Melkor looks for it before the creation of Arda, it stated that "he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar." This strongly suggests that it is not in any form within Melkor. Perhaps one could interpret Eru placing the Flame in Arda as God sending forth the Holy Spirit (Tolkien sure loved his Christianity). But then Melkor certainly could not be of it as it is anathema to him.
Originally posted by ares834
No it doesn't. That a wiki that can be edited by fans. Show me a passage where it states that it makes up the souls and minds of people. The only time such a thing is stated that I'm aware of is at the creation of the second world and it's only then that Eru grants it to others.When Melkor looks for it before the creation of Arda, it stated that "he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar." This strongly suggests that it is not in any form within Melkor. Perhaps one could interpret Eru placing the Flame in Arda as God sending forth the Holy Spirit (Tolkien sure loved his Christianity). But then Melkor certainly could not be of it as it is anathema to him.
I don't need to, that has been up there for a decade or more unchanged. I didn't say they have the power to use it the way Eru does, as that is specifically stated by Eru to be impossible. However, Melkor and the other Ainur are capable of using theirs to INFLUENCE Ea. It is what gives them power.
And no, it is not anathema to him, otherwise him seeking it is completely stupid. However, in a lot of ways it is a metaphor. While he cannot do what Eru does with it inefinitely, the fact remains that he always had part of it within him as to all things. Kind of the point of explaining hubris.