Originally posted by Emperordmb
Or a pelican 🙂
I honestly wish we had gotten to see that. The Inquisitors flying with their lightsabers was already ridiculous it wouldn't have made a difference.
The way the Eighth Brother ambushes Ezra and Kanan reminds me of air capable transformers entering a battle.
It was ridiculous but if done better it could've worked.
Lol. If two characters perform the exact same physical move in the animation, with the shows being created by the same people, there is no inconsistency.
Alright, let me then show you another example in that exact same scene. First both Saw and Rex commented on how - even with Kanan's help - they couldn't get to the other side like Ezra. Next they shoot a bridge and Kanan holds it so that they can get to the other side. Yet how is it possible that Kanan can lift a massive bridge + the weight of both Rex and Saw while he couldn't just use TK to get them to the other side of that chasm? That's a massive contradiction within even the same scene so your point is just flat out untrue.
Ezra has repeatedly shown to be incapable of jumping high or long distances, which speaks to his lackluster Force augmentation. And Ahsoka has demonstrated just the opposite, consistently. Plus, I'd say Force augmentation is pretty important when fighting, wouldn't you?
I'll respond to the comparison of both their Force augmentation in the last point since that's where you listed your examples. Regarding the importance of it, I - again - disagree with your statement. In Canon we've seen normal, non-force sensitive beings go directly against Jedi or Sith without being severely disadvantaged.
Superior augmentation factors in heavily in combat situations—especially lightsaber duels. And I'm pretty sure Ezra's growth in power wasn't so specific—wasn't Filoni, FPJ and co. all speaking to Ezra's power growth?
The statements about Ezra's power growth weren't specific at all which makes that there's tons of room for speculation. Anyway, I would definitely agree that Force Augmentation is important under the normal circumstances but given this context extreme inconsistency regarding augmentation (or even Force power in general) I don't see why it should be a major point in this discussion.
Because I didn't remember that scene? Link me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XNdaOjev3E. Ezra goes to confront the Nightsister possessed Kanan and asked them to release him on which they reply that he needs to prove he's the stronger one. Kanan attacks Ezra and the latter tries to talk to him until he lashes out with the Force. This convinces the Nightsisters that Ezra's the more powerful host and they release Kanan.
Genuinely curious people totally start off a sentence with "do enlighten me." roll eyes (sarcastic) Anyways, the ones that came to mind off the top of my head: Ahsoka has jumped massive distances (Kiros)—ones that are several times larger than the one Ezra was incapable of jumping in Season 3. She was also demonstrably faster than the Trandoshans she encountered on Wasskah, which I can't really say the same for with Ezra.
Well of course this isn't season 1 Ahsoka which you probably have realized. Again, I don't see why Force Augmentation in this context would matter, there are too many inconsistencies and examples of 'lesser beings' going toe-to-toe with superior Force users. Nor do I understand the reasoning behind putting so much importance in Ezra's fight with the Trandoshan captain. It's worth as much as Hondo going toe-to-toe with Anakin or Ahsoka despite that he shouldn't be able to give them any trouble. It's a perfect example of a plot driven fight.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9Okay, no, it is not. Saw made that comment in reference to the fact Ezra jumped with the assistance of Kanan's push, and how that he and Rex would be incapable of jumping to the same degree Ezra did, and thus, Kanan's push couldn't compensate for their lackluster jump. Kanan, Rex and Saw then changed tactics in order to get to the other side of the chasm.
Alright, let me then show you another example in that exact same scene. First both Saw and Rex commented on how - even with Kanan's help - they couldn't get to the other side like Ezra. Next they shoot a bridge and Kanan holds it so that they can get to the other side. Yet how is it possible that Kanan can lift a massive bridge + the weight of both Rex and Saw while he couldn't just use TK to get them to the other side of that chasm? That's a massive contradiction within even the same scene so your point is just flat out untrue.
Nothing about that is a contradiction. At all.
Ezra's jump + Kanan's push = successful crossing.
Rex and Saw's jump + Kanan's push = failure.
The fact that Kanan was capable of holding up a bridge with the additional weight of Saw and Rex doesn't contradict the fact that Kanan apparently couldn't launch Saw and Rex over the chasm. Number 1: Kanan would need Saw or Rex to jump to a decent height, like Ezra did, in order for him to launch them. They can't do that. Number 2: There would be a high chance that Saw or Rex could break their legs if they were launched over the chasm and actually landed. If you look at the peak height Ezra was at when he was launched over, it seems to me that most non-Force sensitive humans would have broken bones if they fell from that height.
You could argue that Kanan could have just floated Saw and Rex over to the other side of the chasm. And maybe he could have. But that also could have been too slow of an option and isn't evidence of a "massive contradiction," either. Kanan even responds to Saw's statement with: "I've got a better idea." Kanan likely thought that holding the bridge up for them to cross was a more effective means of crossing.
Again, no glaring contradiction. Sorry.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9Define "normal." The vast majority of cases where a Force-sensitive being fought a non-Force-sensitive being are when the non-Force-sensitive being is highly trained or mechanically enhanced, or the Force-sensitive is literally not attempting to harm the non-Force-sensitive. A couple examples: Pre Vizsla, a highly trained Mandalorian—and General Grievous, a mechanically enhanced monstrosity trained by Count Dooku.
I'll respond to the comparison of both their Force augmentation in the last point since that's where you listed your examples. Regarding the importance of it, I - again - disagree with your statement. In Canon we've seen normal, non-force sensitive beings go directly against Jedi or Sith without being severely disadvantaged.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9You can speculate all you want but trying to claim that Ezra's power growth in Season 3 was specific to his Force senses and trust is beyond your authority. As far as I remember, Filoni and co.'s rhetoric on Ezra's growth in power was quite general, so I don't see any reason to start narrowing down areas in which he's grown in order for you to wriggle out of a point. I'd say there's more reason to believe Filoni and co. intended Ezra to grow overall.
The statements about Ezra's power growth weren't specific at all which makes that there's tons of room for speculation.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9Sure, there are inconsistencies. Literally no one denies that. But the inconsistencies do not warrant a handwaving attitude in regards to legitimate comparisons of Force usage, which is what you are doing.
Anyway, I would definitely agree that Force Augmentation is important under the normal circumstances but given this context extreme inconsistency regarding augmentation (or even Force power in general) I don't see why it should be a major point in this discussion.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist91. Who's to say the Nightsisters weren't basing their idea of 'most powerful' on the innate raw power of the individual? Everyone knows Ezra has greater potential than Kanan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XNdaOjev3E. Ezra goes to confront the Nightsister possessed Kanan and asked them to release him on which they reply that he needs to prove he's the stronger one. Kanan attacks Ezra and the latter tries to talk to him until he lashes out with the Force. This convinces the Nightsisters that Ezra's the more powerful host and they release Kanan.
2. How can the Nightsisters know for sure who is the most powerful of the two? All Ezra did was land a Force push. The Nightsisters concluding that Ezra was more powerful based on that seems somewhat unreliable, and certainly not concrete.
3. Isn't the implicit claim by the Nightsisters that Ezra is more powerful than Kanan contradict what you were asserting on this very thread that Ezra as of Season 3 was only "nearing" Kanan?
This all seems sketchy to me, DD9. 🙁
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9I've addressed this, but damn, it strikes me how much of a cop-out argument this is. We see blatant physical superiority from Ahsoka and you're content with just handwaving it. If you want, I can scour through all the examples of Ahsoka outperforming Ezra in terms of physical feats, physical skill, and skill in implementing Force abilities. But to do that I'd probably have to make an entirely separate thread.
Again, I don't see why Force Augmentation in this context would matter, there are too many inconsistencies and examples of 'lesser beings' going toe-to-toe with superior Force users.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9Because it's an apples-to-apples comparison with there being no reason for Ezra not to have performed as well as Ahsoka. And let me explain the differences between Hondo vs. Anakin & Ahsoka and Ezra vs. the Trandoshan:
Nor do I understand the reasoning behind putting so much importance in Ezra's fight with the Trandoshan captain. It's worth as much as Hondo going toe-to-toe with Anakin or Ahsoka despite that he shouldn't be able to give them any trouble. It's a perfect example of a plot driven fight.
1. Hondo is actually an important character. He is important to The Clone Wars. Thus, a 'PIS' defense can be made. Not to mention the fact that Ahsoka literally yelled out to Hondo that she wasn't trying to hurt him, but whatever.
2. The Trandoshan Ezra was facing had no significance or use—especially by the end of the episode, where all there had to be was a fight scene that ended in the Trandoshan's death. Ezra did not have to struggle and be embarrassed. Dismissing the fight as plot (and hilariously, as you phrased it, as a "[/i]perfect example of a plot driven fight[/i]"😉 seems evasive.
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At the end of the day, we have many comparisons we can make with Ezra and Ahsoka, purely on a physical basis.
vs.
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In conclusion: this is painfully clean-cut. I'm sad I even have to make this argument. Ahsoka makes Ezra her *****. And by the way, all the gifs I've made are only from examples that I was able to find on YouTube—there are several more examples I could use but couldn't find. Ahsoka totally eclipses Ezra on a physical basis related to the Force and related to skill. I haven't even touched lightsaber ability, or have gone into depth on how much better Ahsoka is in the examples I've put forth.