No retcon. This actually was a new instance. Oeming when he did omega flight said he wanted to do new things. Such as why on earth did tanaraq have surturs demon army? Never explained nor was it ever addressed again.
No one is debating Walter wasn’t possessed. People were saying that was tanaraq and at full power...even in this thread which started this debate. I have also issue people saying the extent of tanaraqs possession. Walter was more in control of his body during a “possession” then ever before. He was actually speaking in his own words when other times tanaraq outright takes control and talks on his own. We even see what Walter sees which even made him cry and beg not to be killed. Walter even appeared to have changed (hair stuck up more) when possessed this has never happened ever before neither to Walter or snowbird. So we CANT say it was the same scenario way back in AF vol. Even recently in Amazing x-men Walter turned but he didn’t change appearance, or speak and mentioned it was due to tanaraq taking control
That’s the problem with Walter and the beasts. Sasquatch has been confined to have dynamic strength. Great beasts have the time limit for their power so yes assigning a power level for him there is tricky. To say for a fact he got a power amp during this scenario is questionable. As we saw wrecker with the tanaraq boost easily take it to BRB. If he truely was getting a serious amp don’t you think he would have done much better? But then again might be due to Walter having the breakdown and crying which caused him to give up. He even begged talisman not to kill him thinking she was a foe due to tanaraqs illusions.
Yeah that’s a stretch to say hulk beat her. Hell Walter did better and lasted longer against Hulk so we know the fight could/can go longer. Hulk briefly overpowered her, sure, but fight was far from over and more took snowbird by surprise that he was so strong. They weren’t even in a contest of strength so the comment is odd to begin with. He threw something st her and knocked her down and then got back up none the worse for wear. Inconclusive
Oh and also to add. Snowbird even though she was built to fight the beasts barely know anything about them during the time. She didn’t even know Sasquatch was tanaraqs avatar until the gods of the artic tortured her for being so dumb. She even believes tanaraq to be killed there but we know he wasn’t. She got one shot by tanaraq in amazing X-Men so clearly not an expect on his strength
I'm surprised I didn't recall this...but they actually explained why Walter's hair was standing up and it wasn't due to being possessed by Tanaraq. It was because of being in the realm of the beasts and being in proximity of Tanaraq....
Wrecker: can you feel it?
Thunderball: Energy
Bulldozer: My hairs are standing up
Wrecker: Not energy. Power!
So it basically was a static electricity so to speak. When the "charge" was removed his hair went back down to normal. Walter's hair was actually already sticking up pre-Tanaraq possession as we see him lying on the ground
Concerning the BRB fight. After BRB sucker blitzed Walter, sasquatch was actually winning in a one on one fight and doing significant damage until BRB used his lightening to stop his attacks. That seemed to end it, but really if he was truly amped we have seen wrecker laugh off similar hits twice. However, it can be explained too. That attacked seemed to shake something loose as walter was grabbing his head like he was doing earlier and was becoming docile. He was listening to talisman and not instantly attacking like what he was doing earlier. She was telling him to fight through the illusions.... and it's working. We see through his eyes and talisman is normal, but then the next panel the illusions return and walter breaks apart mentally.
Actually now that I think of it, was Walter even 100% (or close to it?) during the fights? Walter was knocked out and unconscious from being tortured by the Wrecking Crew for days. He's lying on the ground motionless then it zooms in on his eyes and weird symbols appear on his pupils (which makes sense as he was seeing illusions revealed in the next issue) and then he jumps into action. However, he still was bleeding and had the cuts from the Crew. Also when he first appears after under Tanaraq's "control" we even see Walter struggling grabbing his head with red energy and when he saw Talisman he attacked...which again makes sense due to the illusions. Later when walter was going to kill Guardian, Talisman tells him to stop and once again zooms in on the eyes and we see a glimmer. When the crew got amped it was a lot different then walter's scene.
Originally posted by -K-M-This forum sucks for quoting.
No retcon. This actually was a new instance. Oeming when he did omega flight said he wanted to do new things. Such as why on earth did tanaraq have surturs demon army? Never explained nor was it ever addressed again.No one is debating Walter wasn’t possessed. People were saying that was tanaraq and at full power...even in this thread which started this debate. I have also issue people saying the extent of tanaraqs possession. Walter was more in control of his body during a “possession” then ever before. He was actually speaking in his own words when other times tanaraq outright takes control and talks on his own. We even see what Walter sees which even made him cry and beg not to be killed. Walter even appeared to have changed (hair stuck up more) when possessed this has never happened ever before neither to Walter or snowbird. So we CANT say it was the same scenario way back in AF vol. Even recently in Amazing x-men Walter turned but he didn’t change appearance, or speak and mentioned it was due to tanaraq taking control
That’s the problem with Walter and the beasts. Sasquatch has been confined to have dynamic strength. Great beasts have the time limit for their power so yes assigning a power level for him there is tricky. To say for a fact he got a power amp during this scenario is questionable. As we saw wrecker with the tanaraq boost easily take it to BRB. If he truely was getting a serious amp don’t you think he would have done much better? But then again might be due to Walter having the breakdown and crying which caused him to give up. He even begged talisman not to kill him thinking she was a foe due to tanaraqs illusions.
Yeah that’s a stretch to say hulk beat her. Hell Walter did better and lasted longer against Hulk so we know the fight could/can go longer. Hulk briefly overpowered her, sure, but fight was far from over and more took snowbird by surprise that he was so strong. They weren’t even in a contest of strength so the comment is odd to begin with. He threw something st her and knocked her down and then got back up none the worse for wear. Inconclusive
Anyway, that's what I'm saying, is it was different if we follow what you're saying purely. That doesn't mean you can downgrade it to other levels or assume a different power just because it was. Do you think it a safer assumption to assume his power changed for the worse, or stayed as what was intended in the past? Especially when everyone "knew" what was going on, and what Walter was seeing, while still knowing Tanaraq was in there and possessing him, which was proven true.
Basically what had happened was they knew it was the same as before, and yet Talisman still thought Walter was in there. Which is possible, because again, we never saw it from his point of view before.
https://imgur.com/201lwsH
It was a classic fight for control trope. They actually tried to reach him instead of Snowbird beating the shit out of him, and it worked. Which means it's possible he could have always been in there, and could have resurfaced to fight for what little control he has, or had. Maybe they just went about it in a little different way, or maybe it was a full retcon of how it worked. Who knows, do you Mungi?
And he took Surtur's army because Surtur was dead. Really no need to expand there. You could argue Oeming didn't understand Alpha Flight, but to assume the intention was different is disingenuous. Though they were calling the army Great Beasts so...
"No one was debating Walter is possessed"
See here's the important part of why I keep bringing that up. Because of things like this being said:
"Walter was more in control of his body during a “possession” then ever before..."
"To say for a fact he got a power amp during this scenario is questionable."
Which is you basically downplaying the possession as much as you can to make it seem like nothing. You later speak of how well he was doing before a lightning bolt, or try to make it seem he was drained as shit before the possession, which is all fine and dandy, but those things do not speak of his power staying the same to say the least.
If Walter were severely drained and beaten up, he would have had to have a huge amp to contend with and IYO start winning against Beta Ray Bill under Oeming. You see the issue there? We have to assume an amp for that very reason. And thus we can't assume the possession was as simple as Tanaraq was telling him to kill his buddies. Plus the little energy attack he fired off after he was holding his head.
Plus, Oeming didn't seem to know what to do with Tanaraq's voice either. Which explains why he would focus on making Walter be the voice. Even this is not actually coming from the Tanaraq head:
Though that is an important panel, because it shows that Tanaraq definitely wants to come to Earth. He's using the Wrecking Crew as hands, the Demons as weapons, and Sassy as the body. He possesses Sasquatch, comes to Earth, and gets sucked off. He was there bro.
This may also be the triquetra which I'll get to later. Hand, body, weapon. Meh.
As for Amazing X-Men? It was the curse of the Wendigo that got him as Tanaraq gained that power and massively amped himself. And he did speak, he said Wendigo, I guess.
https://imgur.com/R10hgxn
https://imgur.com/viRUuiR
https://imgur.com/SmoLvHN
He did seem to more resemble a Wendigo though. Why he didn't change color is a good question. But Tanaraq wasn't trying to possess him at the time, as he himself was coming to Earth.
Originally posted by -K-M-So you think his energy standing up due to being around so much power has nothing to do with being possessed by the being that's the source of this power?
I'm surprised I didn't recall this...but they actually explained why Walter's hair was standing up and it wasn't due to being possessed by Tanaraq. It was because of being in the realm of the beasts and being in proximity of Tanaraq....Wrecker: can you feel it?
Thunderball: Energy
Bulldozer: My hairs are standing up
Wrecker: Not energy. Power!So it basically was a static electricity so to speak. When the "charge" was removed his hair went back down to normal. Walter's hair was actually already sticking up pre-Tanaraq possession as we see him lying on the ground
Concerning the BRB fight. After BRB sucker blitzed Walter, sasquatch was actually winning in a one on one fight and doing significant damage until BRB used his lightening to stop his attacks. That seemed to end it, but really if he was truly amped we have seen wrecker laugh off similar hits twice. However, it can be explained too. That attacked seemed to shake something loose as walter was grabbing his head like he was doing earlier and was becoming docile. He was listening to talisman and not instantly attacking like what he was doing earlier. She was telling him to fight through the illusions.... and it's working. We see through his eyes and talisman is normal, but then the next panel the illusions return and walter breaks apart mentally.
Actually now that I think of it, was Walter even 100% (or close to it?) during the fights? Walter was knocked out and unconscious from being tortured by the Wrecking Crew for days. He's lying on the ground motionless then it zooms in on his eyes and weird symbols appear on his pupils (which makes sense as he was seeing illusions revealed in the next issue) and then he jumps into action. However, he still was bleeding and had the cuts from the Crew. Also when he first appears after under Tanaraq's "control" we even see Walter struggling grabbing his head with red energy and when he saw Talisman he attacked...which again makes sense due to the illusions. Later when walter was going to kill Guardian, Talisman tells him to stop and once again zooms in on the eyes and we see a glimmer. When the crew got amped it was a lot different then walter's scene.
Also, no his hair wasn't. Or at the very least, you can't tell. What we do see however, is what looks like power flowing into him, and his eyes glow with energy.
https://imgur.com/9O2iJMw
https://imgur.com/sXtcFaM
That plus, and maybe the most important thing is, she literally absorbed Tanaraq's spirit from Walter, which instantly transformed him back, and once the pouch was sealed, the Wrecking Crew lost their amp. The demons flew into a rage to follow and save their master. You can even see it screaming much in the way Walter was during that time.
https://imgur.com/pFvMkiO
https://imgur.com/687pbHr
https://imgur.com/rbLJbiT
She needed Walter to regain control of his body enough to fight against the influence because Tan was too powerful to expel just by herself. A classic fight for control.
There seemed to be a good indication that whatever was directly inside Sasquatch was where the power was coming from. Which the story says is Tanaraq. The bio does as well. It might not sync up with the previous one time, but it is what we're told.
Now, I know you're going to say she absorbed from the Crew, but that wasn't what was shown. The Pouch was closed after only absorbing Tanaraq, and then she sealed it "forever". Then we see the power leaving the Wrecking Crew. Which, means Tanaraq being shunted away like that cut him off from amping them. And if this source is inside someone, you would assume that person would be amped, no?
You just argued that we don't know if he were amped. I think beating up Oeming Beta Ray Bill in your opinion constitutes as a huge amp, especially when he was screaming about destroying planets at the time.
Either way, he only started holding his head after Beta had his way with him. So if you want to argue it knocked something loose, that's fine, the damage was already done. Maybe he regained control, and maybe it did knock something loose and give Walter more control, which is something we never saw previously, Tanaraq getting hit hard enough to get stunned and for Walter to get back in there. So, it is possible.
Maybe once Walter got back in control somewhat, Tanaraq was using illusions to drag him back under. Maybe something else. There's too many variables to assume such and such. Either way, we know Sasquatch isn't going to pose a significant challenge to Beta as showed even in that story.
The non amped Wrecking Crew beat Sasquatch badly. Beta is able to stand up to a degree to the amped Wrecking Crew. IE, Sasquatch doing well against Beta likely means he got amped. And amping other durable characters does not mean you yourself are going to possess incredible durability far in excess of amping beings who already had this. Especially once Beta loses his shit.
Also we didn't see through his eyes what was normal, that was just to show what was real, and what he saw. It's like in the movies when one guy sees a skinny girl, but the more sober friends see a moocow. The drunk guy never sees the moocow. That is what happened there.
Also, Beta went all out against Sasquatch and wasn't getting distracted and hit by advantageous shots against him like Wrecker. Nor was he throwing massive lightning bolt hammer attacks against Wrecker. We saw him hit Wrecker with one good lightning charged hammer shot (not on the level of what he did against TanSas) and the rest of the Wrecking Crew immediately jumped in to save him. Wrecker was contending against a rather subdued Beta in comparison, a Beta who was always worried about the "Great Beasts" coming up the rear. Yes he was striking, but he wasn't truly throwing the massive shots like he did against SasTan. And in the bigger picture, it was under Oeming, who we've seen can turn up the dials on Beta when he gets really into it.
Well, like I said above, if Walter maintained that level of exhaustion, yet could contend with Beta Ray Bill, it was a massive amp. Do I think that was the intention to have Sas weakened like that but get a power source? No, I believe it was more like Namek Goku or UI Goku. Where it ignores the prior exhaustion once the additional power source kicks in. However, I can't prove that, so we will follow this train of thought.
Say Samsquanch was at absolutely zero power, and maintains that level even after the possession. All we would have to do is just ignore Sasquatch's power. This is minus his power. What that means is that to get the full power, all you'd have to do is add his power back in there. So, if say the being was absolutely devoid of Sasquatch's strength, you would just add that in to get a realistic measurement. So you leave yourself with the question of whether or not Sasquatch's strength alone is enough to make difference against higher level beings like that.
Obviously he could run and punch and walk around, so he wasn't negatively effected by the amp. He just might have lost an amount of Sasquatch's max power in the possession if we follow this.
However, we did see once Tanaraq was expelled Sasquatch was looking none the worse for wear, so... it probably was like the Goku examples...
Also, that red energy when he was holding his head doesn't bode well for it not being a powerup when that same energy was radiating off of the Wrecking Crew, and later from the sealed pouch. He might have been able to control it from leaking out, but it was there.
And the weird eye symbol?
Looks like a triquetra. Which seems to symbolize in this case a God (Tanaraq). Usually a trinity of things relating to it, or John Paul Jones (also God), but if we apply it in this case, it would seem to just be a catchall for a God. If you take it as an absolute and it must mean something relevant to Sassy, you could say Man, Beast, God. Power of the three. Either way, it's not really an illusion symbol, and if you actually factor it in, it's probably not good for what you're saying...
I'll answer the Snowbird Hulk quandaries here.
Originally posted by -K-M-
Oh and also to add. Snowbird even though she was built to fight the beasts barely know anything about them during the time. She didn’t even know Sasquatch was tanaraqs avatar until the gods of the artic tortured her for being so dumb. She even believes tanaraq to be killed there but we know he wasn’t. She got one shot by tanaraq in amazing X-Men so clearly not an expect on his strength
That is fine. The issue is that Snowbird was using the same level of power that she used to "kill" Tanaraq, so she knew, or assumed she had that level of power. You could argue he was weaker than full power Tanaraq due to the time limit, and that's OK too. I understand that is a problem with them, that is not my argument. I am only saying the intention of Tantan was meant to be the same level of power as the prior possessions.
So anyway, Snowbird knew what level of power she used against Tanaraq to win. So what her inclusion means is that she confirmed she was using that same level against Hulk. Which means Hulk was more powerful than that level of power.
And about the fight, I won't argue who won. I spoke off the top of my head on that one. I still think Hulk won, or at least she definitely didn't win, but I won't push it. I know it's tenuous ground with cases like that. Hulk didn't finish the fight, but he certainly didn't lose or tie I guess would be the better wording.
Either way, the important part is Snowbird confirmed Hulk was more powerful, no matter how he accomplished it.
And when you start a strength fight against Hulk when you start off lower? That really doesn't bode well for you down the road.
Look man, I love you like a backwoods daughter. I'm not insulting you, I'm just saying that Tanaraq really sucks and is worthless. I don't understand the pushback here. 😬
In any case, humor me for another day and I'll be done by the end of Tuesday. You throw that Wednesday opener in and you can keep the pride of your country intact. I'm really not feeling this argument for some reason, and I don't know why, probably you tbh. Maybe it truly is Alpha Flight sapping my will to live, and you must have a strong willpower.
Ok that’s an essay. Honestly no disrespect But I didn’t even want to get into a debate here hence the gifs. When I get off work I’ll give it a more in depth but think we should just agree to disagree
Just one quick thing. “The non amped Wrecking Crew beat Sasquatch badly”. They were amped even in their fight with Sasquatch which was confirmed in the handbook if we choose to go by that. Also Walter had PTSD which allowed the battle to turn. So meh
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Mungi, this is the only time someone will actually engage with you in an AF debate.Don't throw it all away you ungrateful bint.
I don’t even like getting in AF debates anymore as usually involves jokes about the characters or to me and rinse and repeat. It’s tedious and just get lumped into just being a fan of these chAracters which isn’t true. Their not even in my top 10 favs
I have moved on
Originally posted by Bentley
I suspect Mungi doesn't even like AF, he just bought a Puck t-shirt once by accident and then decided to make it part of his KMC persona for the lols.
Actually started with the old wolverine vs alpha flight thread with wolverine8888/battlehammer (or something like that). Never read them as a kid or knew about them, but made me do some background reading and then saw some Uber feats and made the respect threads as they were always getting downplayed and the rest was history
Originally posted by -K-M-
I don’t even like getting in AF debates anymore as usually involves jokes about the characters or to me and rinse and repeat. It’s tedious and just get lumped into just being a fan of these chAracters which isn’t true. Their not even in my top 10 favsI have moved on
Hey, as identities go, it's not bad. Could be worse, like Leoni, who is only known as being old.
Typing on my phone so apologize if this doesn’t make sense
This debate started as it was said that was tanaraq and at full power. I strongly disagree. As I said before I don’t believe this possession was much of an amp if there was one. We know prior history and the time limits so highly unlikely he was or close to it. we saw tanaraq can casually boost the crew to tank hammer shots to the face multiple times and smile. But here? Walter was done after one. you don’t think he would amp himself or Sasquatch to be able to tank it better? Did it for the wrecker. The mental break could be an explanation which I touched on earlier but again shows the vastly inconsistency even in this story. You think Walter needs a massive amp to hang as long as he did against Brb? Why? Walter can hang with Hercules, Thor (masterson), wendigo, a-bomb, Rulk, hulk and others and did better but brb is far above him after one good shot? Disagree
Also I disagree you saying we didn’t see Walter see things normal again after brb hit. They were side by side comparisons to illustrate what he saw. That’s pretty clear. He saw talisman as normal and was docile no longer fighting but then in the next panel the image changed and Sasquatch freaked out. Clearly illustrates Walter was in control. He even begs talisman not to kill him. He was so badly wounded maybe tanaraq just even got him back to his normal levels. Maybe not. I saw nothing that normal Walter couldn’t do in his regular form
Walter was directly speaking, not tanaraq and we know there is a difference. We even see what Walter sees and talisman even calls out the illusions. Tanaraq has never done this before. When he takes over he takes over and there is no fighting it. Your trying to say it’s the same when he was first possessed back in Af vol 1. I just don’t see how you can say that
Your choosing to use the ambiguity as a fact while I’m saying the former. In the history of Walter and snowbird no one has been able expel tanaraq like that. Ever.
You say that was the writer intent, but not to brag (but I am) I actually used to talk to oeming a lot back in the day and feel I have a pretty good grasp what happened. He even gave me a shoutout in mice Templar #1.
Concerning hulk and snowbird fight. The debate was hulk won the fight. He didn’t. It was far from over but don’t forget hulk wasn’t exactly going in cold. He was already in an extended fight in the dimension he was sealed, then the army and then alpha flight and finally snowbird. So would make sense even if he was stronger there, but again snowbird didn’t get a chance to use her dynamic strength either. But how can you overpower someone by throwing an object when a few panels earlier she tanked a punch to the ribs like nothing....Not debating who wins in an overall fight , as said in the other recent thread hulk will beat Sasquatch more often then not
This is the second time I typed this up started writing up reply’s to you other points but then lost them again trying to quote so will leave it At that
I can’t quote or edit my posts so that’s why my posts are jumbled. I can’t even post scans as photobuket has blocked third party hosting. Feel free to reply but I’m going to respectfully agree to disagree
Alright Mungi, I don't want to push you into a big debate if you don't want to. I have to be at that length to answer everything you said to my degree of satisfaction. Not intended to intimidate, you were just saying things that needed to be answered in depth. It's not as simple as just saying no to specific parts of your post.
Without getting back into the debate, I will say that the viewpoint thing was just showing what it really looked like, as opposed to Walter seeing both real and illusions. We saw the same viewpoint being used earlier without illusions. It was used to show the contrast, and it's especially hard to switch viewpoints in comics with shit like that since we see that same sort of panel all the time. Maybe Walter was, but I don't think that trope was the one to show it especially when he came away from that scene feeling threatened.
Without factors like time limit powerups and such, I think Sasquatch was intended to be the same level as his prior possession. I want you to think about that. You can disagree, and I'm sure you will, but just think about it, along with all their feats I don't think it unreasonable.
Also I took one look at the symbol in his eyes today and now it looks like bubbles forming. Which I took to mean to take something was bubbling to the surface. Power in my opinion, but whatever.