Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Was Ultron an MA Master?
No, but Loki and Hela were definitely skilled warriors. And Hulk is stronger and tougher than Thor whom Thor clearly outskilled. Then there are all the frost giants that Thor easily demolished.
WW has no equivalent feats against either superpowered opponents or skilled superpowered opponents. I wasn't questioning that WW is skilled, I was pointing out that she doesn't have combat feats to compare to Thor's.
Originally posted by FrothByteHela stomped Thor 2 out of 3 and even then Thor only managed to slow her down in their last encounter. Loki is meh. And I don't think there is that big of a gap between Hulk and Thor physically tbh.
No, but Loki and Hela were definitely skilled warriors. And Hulk is stronger and tougher than Thor whom Thor clearly outskilled. Then there are all the frost giants that Thor easily demolished.WW has no equivalent feats against either superpowered opponents or skilled superpowered opponents. I wasn't questioning that WW is skilled, I was pointing out that she doesn't have combat feats to compare to Thor's.
There was a bigger difference between WW and Doomsday but she still did pretty okay till Superman came back.
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Hela stomped Thor 2 out of 3 and even then Thor only managed to slow her down in their last encounter. Loki is meh. And I don't think there is that big of a gap between Hulk and Thor physically tbh.There was a bigger difference between WW and Doomsday but she still did pretty okay till Superman came back.
Let's make a tally shall we:
1. Fights against fodder:
WW showed great skill against WW1 soldiers. The only other fodder she took on were parademons, who seemed slightly above human strength but not so much so that Batman couldn't take one on his own. Bottom line is, these fodder were all way below WW's strength and speed. Making them very easy to outclass in h2h even if she had little skill.
Thor on the other hand took on Frost Giants, Dark Elves, Surtur's minions, undead Asgardians and Ultronbots. All of which are above human physicality especially for the frost giants who showed pretty equal strength to Asgardians. Meaning Thor had outfight beings who were considerable closer to his strength and durability than WW's fodder were to hers. That makes this a better showing for Thor.
2. Fights against superpowered but questionably skilled opponents:
WW fought Doomsday and did well against him, though she did have the advantage of a 3 on 1 fight plus the fact that she was armed and DD was not. So that's not exactly such a high showing for her. Especially since all the major attacks she landed were done while Superman assisted her. She fought Superman but then she didn't exactly do much more than a headbutt and a few bullrushes IIRC. And she got completely dominated in that fight. The best fight she has is against Luddendorf, who has displayed no evidence of outright skill. Yet she struggled against him even though she did eventually win, and this was with her being armed and him unarmed.
On the other hand, Thor fought IM at 400%, with IM using flight and repulsors against Thor while Thor only fought melee (after the initial lightning blast). That ended with Thor having a clear advantage. Thor fought the Hulk twice, and in both encounters Hulk had difficulty landing hits on Thor as Thor bobbed and weaved around Hulk and landed way more shots. He fought against Malekith who was powered by a freaking infinity stone and held his own, and it should be noted that Malekith had thousands of years more experience than he did. Then there's Surtur, whom Thor made short work of. Ultron is hard to weigh on because we don't actually see the fight happen.
Still it should be clear from all that that Thor again way better combat feats than WW.
3. Fight against skilled superpowered opponents:
WW fought against Ares, and though Ares is supposedly the God of War he didn't exactly engage in a lot of melee against WW. Still, WW did perform well against him, though it should be noted that she didn't defeat him with her melee skills. Still, a good show for WW. But then her only other fight against a skilled superpowered opponent is against Steppenwolf. And we all know how that went. Even though she supposedly had a speed advantage she couldn't even land a single blow against him that I recall... at least not until the very end when Steppenwolf was already getting tag teamed by everyone.
As for Thor:
In every encounter between Thor and Hela, Thor always landed the first blow, which should already tell you about the difference in their skill level. In their last two fights, Thor landed the first killing blow, just so happened that Hela's healing factor made it a non issue. Which shows that Thor is actually more skilled and would have beaten Hela if not for her healing.
Loki is skilled enough to easily land hits on Captain America and give Valkyrie a fight, Valkyrie who's supposed to be the elite of Asgardian fighters. And Thor has beaten him twice now.
The only bad showing Thor has is vs. Kurse, someone who is vastly more experienced than him and was immune to pain.
Still when we tally the scores, Thor has a 2 to 1 score for good showings vs. skilled superpowered opponents against WW's 1:1 score.
And that's why I said WW doesn't have the same combat feats to compare to Thor. It might be that she's more skilled than he is, but until such time as feats can back that up then Thor is more skilled, because that's what's backed up by feats. She just hasn't displayed her skilled against the same higher caliber opponents that Thor did. Her best displays of skill were against fodder whom she had such a huge physical advantage over.
Originally posted by FrothByte
No, but Loki and Hela were definitely skilled warriors. And Hulk is stronger and tougher than Thor whom Thor clearly outskilled. Then there are all the frost giants that Thor easily demolished.
Thor only defeated Loki with strength. Even Valkyrie stomped Loki. Thor only defeated Frost Giants with mjolnir, he didn't start using fancy moves.
Hulk is literally a retarded idiot and he was beating the shit out of Thor until he went SSJ.
Hela made Thor her *****.
WW has no equivalent feats against either superpowered opponents or skilled superpowered opponents. I wasn't questioning that WW is skilled, I was pointing out that she doesn't have combat feats to compare to Thor's.
Diana absolutely did better than Thor against Doomsday who was stronger than Hulk by a large margin.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Let's make a tally shall we:1. Fights against fodder:
WW showed great skill against WW1 soldiers. The only other fodder she took on were parademons, who seemed slightly above human strength but not so much so that Batman couldn't take one on his own. Bottom line is, these fodder were all way below WW's strength and speed. Making them very easy to outclass in h2h even if she had little skill.
How does beating fodders show skills for either of them?
Thor on the other hand took on Frost Giants, Dark Elves, Surtur's minions, undead Asgardians and Ultronbots. All of which are above human physicality especially for the frost giants who showed pretty equal strength to Asgardians. Meaning Thor had outfight beings who were considerable closer to his strength and durability than WW's fodder were to hers. That makes this a better showing for Thor.
He outfought most of them with mjolnir.
2. Fights against superpowered but questionably skilled opponents:
WW fought Doomsday and did well against him, though she did have the advantage of a 3 on 1 fight plus the fact that she was armed and DD was not. So that's not exactly such a high showing for her. Especially since all the major attacks she landed were done while Superman assisted her. She fought Superman but then she didn't exactly do much more than a headbutt and a few bullrushes IIRC. And she got completely dominated in that fight. The best fight she has is against Luddendorf, who has displayed no evidence of outright skill. Yet she struggled against him even though she did eventually win, and this was with her being armed and him unarmed.
So does Thor's fight with Ultron. Thor got completely dominated even with help.
Doomsday is also above anyone Thor faced in single combat.
On the other hand, Thor fought IM at 400%, with IM using flight and repulsors against Thor while Thor only fought melee (after the initial lightning blast). That ended with Thor having a clear advantage. Thor fought the Hulk twice, and in both encounters Hulk had difficulty landing hits on Thor as Thor bobbed and weaved around Hulk and landed way more shots. He fought against Malekith who was powered by a freaking infinity stone and held his own, and it should be noted that Malekith had thousands of years more experience than he did. Then there's Surtur, whom Thor made short work of. Ultron is hard to weigh on because we don't actually see the fight happen.
😂
Thor was stronger than Tony and hence got upper hand.
Hulk is literally a retard. Malekith was beating the shit out of Thor once mjolnir was out of the way. Malekith was sleeping for those years.
Surtur was depowered.
Still it should be clear from all that that Thor again way better combat feats than WW.
For you maybe.
3. Fight against skilled superpowered opponents:
WW fought against Ares, and though Ares is supposedly the God of War he didn't exactly engage in a lot of melee against WW. Still, WW did perform well against him, though it should be noted that she didn't defeat him with her melee skills. Still, a good show for WW. But then her only other fight against a skilled superpowered opponent is against Steppenwolf. And we all know how that went. Even though she supposedly had a speed advantage she couldn't even land a single blow against him that I recall... at least not until the very end when Steppenwolf was already getting tag teamed by everyone.As for Thor:
In every encounter between Thor and Hela, Thor always landed the first blow, which should already tell you about the difference in their skill level. In their last two fights, Thor landed the first killing blow, just so happened that Hela's healing factor made it a non issue. Which shows that Thor is actually more skilled and would have beaten Hela if not for her healing.
Lolwut? Hela outright overpowered him and had him helpless in their melee fight. His lightning isn't a melee weapon.
Loki is skilled enough to easily land hits on Captain America and give Valkyrie a fight, Valkyrie who's supposed to be the elite of Asgardian fighters. And Thor has beaten him twice now.
The only bad showing Thor has is vs. Kurse, someone who is vastly more experienced than him and was immune to pain.
And what showings does Valkyrie has?
Kurse is immune to pain and vastly more experienced? According to whom? All he did was punch Thor down.
Still when we tally the scores, Thor has a 2 to 1 score for good showings vs. skilled superpowered opponents against WW's 1:1 score.
And that's why I said WW doesn't have the same combat feats to compare to Thor. It might be that she's more skilled than he is, but until such time as feats can back that up then Thor is more skilled, because that's what's backed up by feats. She just hasn't displayed her skilled against the same higher caliber opponents that Thor did. Her best displays of skill were against fodder whom she had such a huge physical advantage over.
And Thor doesn't?
Originally posted by FrothByteI'm gonna respond this when I get home, but know in advance that I agree with a lot of your points.
Let's make a tally shall we:1. Fights against fodder:
WW showed great skill against WW1 soldiers. The only other fodder she took on were parademons, who seemed slightly above human strength but not so much so that Batman couldn't take one on his own. Bottom line is, these fodder were all way below WW's strength and speed. Making them very easy to outclass in h2h even if she had little skill.Thor on the other hand took on Frost Giants, Dark Elves, Surtur's minions, undead Asgardians and Ultronbots. All of which are above human physicality especially for the frost giants who showed pretty equal strength to Asgardians. Meaning Thor had outfight beings who were considerable closer to his strength and durability than WW's fodder were to hers. That makes this a better showing for Thor.
2. Fights against superpowered but questionably skilled opponents:
WW fought Doomsday and did well against him, though she did have the advantage of a 3 on 1 fight plus the fact that she was armed and DD was not. So that's not exactly such a high showing for her. Especially since all the major attacks she landed were done while Superman assisted her. She fought Superman but then she didn't exactly do much more than a headbutt and a few bullrushes IIRC. And she got completely dominated in that fight. The best fight she has is against Luddendorf, who has displayed no evidence of outright skill. Yet she struggled against him even though she did eventually win, and this was with her being armed and him unarmed.On the other hand, Thor fought IM at 400%, with IM using flight and repulsors against Thor while Thor only fought melee (after the initial lightning blast). That ended with Thor having a clear advantage. Thor fought the Hulk twice, and in both encounters Hulk had difficulty landing hits on Thor as Thor bobbed and weaved around Hulk and landed way more shots. He fought against Malekith who was powered by a freaking infinity stone and held his own, and it should be noted that Malekith had thousands of years more experience than he did. Then there's Surtur, whom Thor made short work of. Ultron is hard to weigh on because we don't actually see the fight happen.
Still it should be clear from all that that Thor again way better combat feats than WW.
3. Fight against skilled superpowered opponents:
WW fought against Ares, and though Ares is supposedly the God of War he didn't exactly engage in a lot of melee against WW. Still, WW did perform well against him, though it should be noted that she didn't defeat him with her melee skills. Still, a good show for WW. But then her only other fight against a skilled superpowered opponent is against Steppenwolf. And we all know how that went. Even though she supposedly had a speed advantage she couldn't even land a single blow against him that I recall... at least not until the very end when Steppenwolf was already getting tag teamed by everyone.As for Thor:
In every encounter between Thor and Hela, Thor always landed the first blow, which should already tell you about the difference in their skill level. In their last two fights, Thor landed the first killing blow, just so happened that Hela's healing factor made it a non issue. Which shows that Thor is actually more skilled and would have beaten Hela if not for her healing.Loki is skilled enough to easily land hits on Captain America and give Valkyrie a fight, Valkyrie who's supposed to be the elite of Asgardian fighters. And Thor has beaten him twice now.
The only bad showing Thor has is vs. Kurse, someone who is vastly more experienced than him and was immune to pain.Still when we tally the scores, Thor has a 2 to 1 score for good showings vs. skilled superpowered opponents against WW's 1:1 score.
And that's why I said WW doesn't have the same combat feats to compare to Thor. It might be that she's more skilled than he is, but until such time as feats can back that up then Thor is more skilled, because that's what's backed up by feats. She just hasn't displayed her skilled against the same higher caliber opponents that Thor did. Her best displays of skill were against fodder whom she had such a huge physical advantage over.