The Last Jedi: LUKE SKYWALKER Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Started by Raptor223 pages

Originally posted by relentless1
what does that have anything to do with the character that we saw in the OT?? Romanticized or not Luke would never try to kill his nephew especially in his sleep! This is the guy who was all alone in the thought that he could bring Vader back to the light, the same guy who had a chance to kill Vader after a straight up fight and didn't take it because he knew it was wrong, you think that all of a sudden he'd try to kill a KID IN HIS SLEEP because he "sensed" darkness in his future?? Hell No, that isn't the Luke we knew in the OT at all
I'm honestly seeing how ot lukes character is so much different in this scenerio.

In the OT luke came a second away from killing Vader, stopped himself at the last moment and gave up. Not wanting to kill his father, especially out of fear/anger. He then gives up, tossing down his saber and basically throwing himself at Palpatines mercy, which he almost got zapped to death for. He was willing give up and take the chance of leaving palpatine in power and to sacrifice his sister, friends and the rest of the rebellion, risking all their lives on the slimmest of hopes that his father could be redeemed, and not wanting to risk going to the darkside and doing more harm than good.

With kylo, luke came a second away from killing him, stopped himself at the last moment not wanting to kill him out of fear/anger and got a stone hut dropped on him for it. He then went into exile leaving the galaxy at the mercy of snoke and kylo, out of fear that teaching more jedi would do more harm than good.

At least when he went into exile he did it solely for the altruistic reason that he legit thought it was the best thing for the galaxy, not wanting to risk training more Jedi only to have them turn to the darkside and plunge the galaxy further into darkness.

In the OT, he gave up to the emperor and risked the fate of the Galaxy partly for the selfish reason that he didn't want to kill his own father and wanted to redeem him even though he's a mass murderer with the blood of millions maybe billions on his hands.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm honestly seeing how ot lukes character is so much different in this scenerio.

In the OT luke came a second away from killing Vader, stopped himself at the last moment and gave up. Not wanting to kill his father, especially out of fear/anger. He then gives up, tossing down his saber and basically throwing himself at Palpatines mercy, which he almost got zapped to death for. He was willing give up and take the chance of leaving palpatine in power and to sacrifice his sister, friends and the rest of the rebellion, risking all their lives on the slimmest of hopes that his father could be redeemed, and not wanting to risk going to the darkside and doing more harm than good.

With kylo, luke came a second away from killing him, stopped himself at the last moment not wanting to kill him out of fear/anger and got a stone hut dropped on him for it. He then went into exile leaving the galaxy at the mercy of snoke and kylo, out of fear that teaching more jedi would do more harm than good.

At least when he went into exile he did it solely for the altruistic reason that he legit thought it was the best thing for the galaxy, not wanting to risk training more Jedi only to have them turn to the darkside and plunge the galaxy further into darkness.

In the OT, he gave up to the emperor and risked the fate of the Galaxy partly for the selfish reason that he didn't want to kill his own father and wanted to redeem him even though he's a mass murderer with the blood of millions maybe billions on his hands.

In OT, his desire to kill Vader was fueled by the Emperor (and Vader) actively tempting him towards the dark side. If you'll recall, he initially had ZERO intention of fighting anybody. Ultimately, he overcome the Emperor and Vader's temptations and was unmoved despite being fried by force lightning. Here, we're talking about a Luke who has already completed his arc; a Luke who has already learned his lesson. The thought of killing Kylo would not have even registered in his mind given everything he had gone through in the OT. Like Rey, he would see the conflict in Kylo and would actively gesture him towards the light while being reminded of the lessons he had learned years earlier when he himself was tempted by the dark side.

This is not to say that a situation where Luke tries to murder Kylo is impossible, but the writers would need to give us A LOT MORE information than what we were given to justify such a massive departure from his established characterization.

Luke in the new movie really isn't THAT bad ... he's a far more interesting character like this.

We have to remember that the Skywalker family just has this intrinsic tendency for flirtations with the dark side, as well as pride. Don't tell me Luke wasn't feeling a sense of hubris and vanity when he cut off Vader's hand and had his father at his complete mercy. Anakin too, and even Kylo, have fits of rage that they can't control. Luke is the only one who was able to control them, which is impressive. And he showed it again. Even after having a vision of many people dying and suffering, all through Kylo, and despite his Skywalker 'darkness', he restrained himself.

I do agree that more info/context had to be given. I think Ep. 9 will give more flashbacks of Kylo actually showing signs of turning, and Luke noticing.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In OT, his desire to kill Vader was fueled by the Emperor (and Vader) actively tempting him towards the dark side. If you'll recall, he initially had ZERO intention of fighting anybody. Ultimately, he overcome the Emperor and Vader's temptations and was unmoved despite being fried by force lightning. Here, we're talking about a Luke who has already completed his arc; a Luke who has already learned his lesson. The thought of killing Kylo would not have even registered in his mind given everything he had gone through in the OT. Like Rey, he would see the conflict in Kylo and would actively gesture him towards the light while being reminded of the lessons he had learned years earlier when he himself was tempted by the dark side.

This is not to say that a situation where Luke tries to murder Kylo is impossible, but the writers would need to give us A LOT MORE information than what we were given to justify such a massive departure from his established characterization.

Except iirc he saw no conflict in kylo. He searched kylos feelings and found it twisted by snoke beyond salvation, and even still he stopped himself.

Also weren't those feelings of conflict Rey felt just emotions planted by snoke in order to lure Rey to him? Solidified by the fact that kylo had absolutly no intention of coming back to the light. When he had the chance after snokes death he just wanted Rey to come to his side, and join him in slaughtering the rebellion and ruling the galaxy with him.

Originally posted by Raptor22
Except iirc he saw no conflict in kylo. He searched kylos feelings and found it twisted by snoke beyond salvation, and even still he stopped himself.

Also weren't those feelings of conflict Rey felt just emotions planted by snoke in order to lure Rey to him? Solidified by the fact that kylo had absolutly no intention of coming back to the light. When he had the chance after snokes death he just wanted Rey to come to his side, and join him in slaughtering the rebellion and ruling the galaxy with him.

Snoke himself says there is conflict, which is why he ridicules Kylo at the beginning of the film and what he attributes to why Kylo lost his duel with Rey in TFA. Not to mention that scene where Kylo deliberately passes up on the opportunity to blast Leia from his personal tie-fighter. The entire point of him killing Han was an effort to REMOVE the conflict, but that didn't change. So there was definitely conflict and any notion that Luke wouldn't have been able to find it despite finding it at a much younger and less experienced age in one of the most powerful dark side force wielders in galactic history is highly questionable.

I loved parts of it and I despised parts of it. I liked him as a teacher, I liked his being a hermit. But I despised how weak he comes off as being, he should have been way stronger.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Three versions. Luke's original, Kylo's version, then the truth.

The idea being I don't care about Luke's opinion, and thus when I take one, I'm going with Kylo. You can be as hypothetical and philosophical as you want, but without actual evidence, you need to go on one account or the other. And I'm going with Kylo's because I like him better as a character if nothing else.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The idea being I don't care about Luke's opinion, and thus when I take one, I'm going with Kylo. You can be as hypothetical and philosophical as you want, but without actual evidence, you need to go on one account or the other. And I'm going with Kylo's because I like him better as a character if nothing else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaTQ5JEOK1g

lmfao bruh

That response doesn't even make sense. It's not an edgy statement, it's just an acknowledgement of fact. If anything, taking the word of psycho sounds way worse than taking the word of a Nazi. At least a Nazi has a bigger grasp on reality.

Definitely

Originally posted by darthbane77
I loved parts of it and I despised parts of it. I liked him as a teacher, I liked his being a hermit. But I despised how weak he comes off as being, he should have been way stronger.

I agree, but I actually thought he didn't seem that weak. The way he was able to trick Kylo and toy with him in their "duel" was actually impressive

[Response to Dark-Kenshin moved here from spoiler-free thread]

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In OT, his desire to kill Vader was FUELED by the Emperor AND VADER actively tempting and prodding him towards the dark side. If you'll recall, he initially had ZERO intention of fighting anybody and was content dying on the death star . Ultimately, he overcame the Emperor and Vader's temptations and was unmoved despite being fried nearly to death by the Emperor's force lightning. Here, we're talking about a Luke who is not only not being manipulated by a master of evil, but has already completed his arc; a Luke who has already learned his lesson and fully seen the error of the dark side and that how good can be found in even people as evil as Vader. Are we really to believe that the thought of killing Kylo in cold blood would even REGISTER in his mind given every lesson he had been established as having learned in the OT? I don't think so.

No, I don't think so. Luke is not a traditional Jedi like Kenobi was or some of the prequel Jedi were. He was using force chokes, etc. Yeah, there was definitely temptation there but he likely just had a human reaction to Vader threatening to potentially turn/use Leia and lost control. Luke has always been someone who could've teetered on that line. Yes, he is a Jedi and is good but the thought crossed his mind simply because he knows how strong the Skywalker line is and knew Kylo was already being seduced by Snoke. It crossed his mind and immediately left him, as HE SAID, leaving him feeling nothing but guilt over it. Kylo caught him and thought it was something else.

It added humanity to Luke's character. Being perfectly honest? Luke simply being an absolutely good Jedi with no moments of crisis or anything like that would have been boring. Even a Master is human and can have those moments/thoughts. I thought it was a step in the right direction for his character. Luke learned his lesson about falling to the dark side and fully utilizing that dark power to control or perhaps run a galaxy that way, not necessarily doing a SINGLE thing, albeit a horrible one (killing Kylo).

I don't think your distinction for the Leia comparison matters. Based on what we know about Leia's character, even the mere thought or temptation of having such inclinations about her subordinates would NEVER even register in her head, even for a moment. It's antithetical to everything that has been established about her character. Same goes for Luke. As of the moment he defiantly throws away his lightsaber and tells the epitome of evil himself that he'll never join the darkside, he is shown and established to be beyond such inclinations. Like Rey and much like he did with his father years earlier, he would have seen the conflict in Kylo and would actively gesture him towards the light while being reminded of the lessons he had already learned himself while being tempted by the dark side. Any efforts to put him down would've been defensive or the result of a misunderstanding (which would've made more sense as far as this subplot was concerned).

I'm not going to respond much to your analogy because, as I said before, it doesn't fit much. It doesn't have much going for it, if I'm being honest. Luke's development hadn't ended there. Yes, he threw his lightsaber down and made his decision but obviously having more exposure to the dark side and likely knowing about Snoke's presence and another Sidious coming around, it may have been enough for him to think the action was necessary for a moment. Considering he abandoned another potential order and training more Jedi to seclude himself? It makes perfect sense. He has been someone who has been put to this test most of his life and it inspired a moment in him. It gives his character a lack of perfection that is necessary to not have him be absurdly boring (Early Comic Superman levels of being dandy and good) and inspires conflict.

Like I said, the thought of taking Kylo out crossing his mind is not an implication he would simply walk down the path of the dark side, which I think is the biggest problem with your criticism. He denounced the dark side with Sidious when was young, yes. However, the quick thought of murdering Kylo is not him walking down that path. At that point, it was a human being wanting to commit to something practical and having a lapse in judgment that took no moral conditions into account. There's no evidence to suggest he would have killed Kylo and then it would've changed his iris' yellow and he'd start shooting force lighting everywhere.

As I've pointed out in other threads, this is NOT to say that a situation where Luke tries to murder Kylo is impossible. Established characters can engage in behavior that greatly contradicts their previous characterizations, but the writers would need to give us A LOT MORE context and information than what we were given. And given the ease by which we see Luke communicate with the likes of Yoda, the idea that a lack of senior guidance led to this departure in his characterization is just not persuasive, IMO.

If it was more than just a passing thought that immediately inspired nothing but guilt in Luke? I'd agree it would need more. It wasn't so it isn't against the characterization at all. Luke has never, ever been the picture-perfect Jedi. He's always been, how to put this, closer to "grey" than "blue." He is a fantastic Jedi and is generally an outstandingly moral individual, as we've seen, but he had a moment and it added a great deal of humanity to his character. I loved it.

Also, it did look like he had not communicated with Yoda in a very,
very long time. Just thought I'd add that.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm honestly seeing how ot lukes character is so much different in this scenerio.

In the OT luke came a second away from killing Vader, stopped himself at the last moment and gave up. Not wanting to kill his father, especially out of fear/anger. He then gives up, tossing down his saber and basically throwing himself at Palpatines mercy, which he almost got zapped to death for. He was willing give up and take the chance of leaving palpatine in power and to sacrifice his sister, friends and the rest of the rebellion, risking all their lives on the slimmest of hopes that his father could be redeemed, and not wanting to risk going to the darkside and doing more harm than good.

With kylo, luke came a second away from killing him, stopped himself at the last moment not wanting to kill him out of fear/anger and got a stone hut dropped on him for it. He then went into exile leaving the galaxy at the mercy of snoke and kylo, out of fear that teaching more jedi would do more harm than good.

At least when he went into exile he did it solely for the altruistic reason that he legit thought it was the best thing for the galaxy, not wanting to risk training more Jedi only to have them turn to the darkside and plunge the galaxy further into darkness.

In the OT, he gave up to the emperor and risked the fate of the Galaxy partly for the selfish reason that he didn't want to kill his own father and wanted to redeem him even though he's a mass murderer with the blood of millions maybe billions on his hands.

your analogy is missing one crucial element:

Luke didn't "give up" to the Emperor; Luke had absolutely no way of knowing about Force lightning so him throwing his lightsaber in defiance of some old man wasn't him committing death by Sith, he genuinely didn't know that Palpatine had any offensive capabilities.

Considering what Snoke does in the movie, I find it entirely possible that what Luke sensed in Ben was a trick Snoke had created like he did with Rey.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering what Snoke does in the movie, I find it entirely possible that what Luke sensed in Ben was a trick Snoke had created like he did with Rey.

I thought about that as well but thought it could be a stretch. If Snoke has that ability, he could easily use it to sow discord amongst the Jedi. However, it seemed more likely that Luke's strength in the force that allowed him to see the path Kylo would go down and then Luke just had a momentary lapse of judgment which created a disastrous series of events.

Originally posted by The Lost

Then the fucking incredible backpedaling of, "Well, um, maybe Luke's final version is bullshit! You can't trust him!"

Fucking LOL.

Well, Luke certainly has an opinion on Luke Skywalker. haermm

YouTube video

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight

Are you agreeing with what I said or do you think that I've contradicted myself or something? If it's the latter, I'd like to know how.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Well, Mark certainly has an opinion on Luke Skywalker. haermm


Fixed that for you.

$0.15 have been deposited into your Disney account.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
$0.15 have been deposited into your Disney account.

Boring. I'm disappointed, Blax. Expected something a little less cookie-cutter from you.

How much more effort would you like in response to a quote edit? I'm not made out of effort you know. Effort doesn't just grow on trees.