Originally posted by cdtm
You realize Jiren doesn't start the match powered up, right?Bell rings, and an already fully powered giant Asgardian Destroyer fires off a disintigration beam at a fully depowered Jiren.
This is why Dragon Ball characters can never, ever win a match under standard forum rules. Active powers need to be "switched on", while passive powers (Like durability) is available from the bell.
Dragon Ball characters need to channel their ki and transform. They need to "prep". And Odin doesn't.
So Jiren loses, by forum rules. Horribly.
To any comic character. Jiren loses to Batman.
You don't know what you're talking about. Per forum rules, he does start the match off powered up. It's like saying Hulk doesn't start off angry. Read the rules.
Bell rings and Odin gets his head punched clean off with ease. This is a non fight.
Originally posted by carver9
You don't know what you're talking about. Per forum rules, he does start the match off powered up. It's like saying Hulk doesn't start off angry. Read the rules.Bell rings and Odin gets his head punched clean off with ease. This is a non fight.
Hulk is Hulk. A depowered Hulk would be Banner.
And you need to read the rules. Again. They're very specific about "active powers" being off by default.
Here, ya lazy bum, I even found the rule for you:
Prep time
Neither side receives any notable prep time before the starting bell unless the thread starter specifies it. Neither side may take any offensive or defensive actions before the starting bell. Planning is allowed and powers that are automatic or 'always on' can be up, but actions such as setting up forcefields, taking flight, or consciously activating powers is not. For example, Batman cannot shove together an 'anti-Avengers ray' before the fight.
Relevant part in bold.
Powering up is an active action.
This should settle the dispute.
This is also why I refused SSJGogeta's Superman vs Goku BZ loser banned for life challenge, because he lost before it even began (Besides the terms being stupid, and I don't BZ regardless..)
Originally posted by cdtm
Here, ya lazy bum, I even found the rule for you:Relevant part in bold.
Powering up is an active action.
This should settle the dispute.
This is also why I refused SSJGogeta's Superman vs Goku BZ loser banned for life challenge, because he lost before it even began (Besides the terms being stupid, and I don't BZ regardless..)
Rules...
"It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels".
Which means that Jiren doesn't start the battle at 0. He is at OPTIMUM levels for this fight and what we have seen so far IS his optimum levels and his speed is above Dypso at these optimum levels. Troll.
Jiren blitz during the onset taking Odin head clean off as soon as the bell ring.
Originally posted by carver9
Rules..."It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels".
Which means that Jiren doesn't start the battle at 0. He is at OPTIMUM levels for this fight and what we have seen so far IS his optimum levels and his speed is above Dypso at these optimum levels. Troll.
Jiren blitz during the onset taking Odin head clean off as soon as the bell ring.
That rule is meant for characters like Gladiator or Hulk who's strength is elastic, based on anger/confidence.
And optimum levels within the rules.
By your logic, a GL needs his shields up because without them, he'd be suboptimal.
Ergo, Jiren starts at 0.
Don't blame me for your inability to interpret rules.
Originally posted by cdtm
That rule is meant for characters like Gladiator or Hulk who's strength is elastic, based on anger/confidence.And optimum levels within the rules.
By your logic, a GL needs his shields up because without them, he'd be suboptimal.
Ergo, Jiren starts at 0.
Don't blame me for your inability to interpret rules.
Lol... it didn't limit the rule to Gladiator or Hulk. Show proof please. Jiren starts at his optimum levels. Punch Odin head clean off 10/10. Good try, troll.
You misunderstand.
Gladiator and Hulk are examples of characters with variable powers.
Needing to switch a power on, is not a variable power. It's a power you need to switch on.
You are arguing a Green Lantern who has his shields down should start the match with his shields up, to satisfy the optimum level rule. You are ignoring a rule which specifically states powers that need to be switched on, will not be on at the bell by default.
Jiren's "optimum levels" are his levels before actively activating his powers, by board rules. Period.
Originally posted by cdtm
You misunderstand.Gladiator and Hulk are examples of characters with variable powers.
Needing to switch a power on, is not a variable power. It's a power you need to switch on.
You are arguing a Green Lantern who has his shields down should start the match with his shields up, to satisfy the optimum level rule. You are ignoring a rule which specifically states powers that need to be switched on, will not be on at the bell by default.
Putting up a shield whereas at the same time trying to put a character at 0 bottom are two different things. We take Jiren as what we saw on panel which means, he kills Odin without breaking a sweat.
Originally posted by carver9
Putting up a shield whereas at the same time trying to put a character at 0 bottom are two different things. We take Jiren as what we saw on panel which means, he kills Odin without breaking a sweat.
No, they're not different things. Both are "activating powers". You are deliberately ignoring a rule you don't agree with.
Originally posted by cdtm
No, they're not different things. Both are "activating powers". You are deliberately ignoring a rule you don't agree with.
I'm not ignoring anything. No character starts at 0. Just doesn't exist on the forum and there's no proof that Jiren can even go to 0. You're getting Jiren physiology mixed up with Goku and the rest of the Z fighters.
Originally posted by cdtm
So now you change your argument from "powers can't be Zero", to "we don't know Jiren's Zero".I'll take it, since it means you've just admitted Superman crush's Goku under board rules. 😛
I never admitted anything. I clearly told you in my last post that no one powers start at 0. Get a mod opinion on it or go away.
Originally posted by cdtm
Jiren isn't Beerus or Champa, though.
Correct. Jiren is most likely above both of them, and is CERTAINLY capable of oneshotting the suppressed Beerus that casually nullified the universe-annihilating energy ball.
Originally posted by cdtm
The tier you're putting Jiren on hinges on the assumption that:1. Whis or Beerus wouldn't lie. (We know they would, because they admitted Beerus has, about using 100% of his power.)
2. That Jiren = a God of Destruction (So assuming Beerus really could insta-vape the universe, it follows Jiren could as well, if he could hold his own with a GoD.)
Oh lordie.
The Toei website, Toppo, and Whis all explicitly corroborate the notion that Jiren is at or above the level of God of Destruction. We know for an absolute fact that Jiren is at LEAST above Vermod, and given that all of the Gods of Destruction are relative to each other...no reason to believe that Jiren isn't at LEAST on par with Beerus. There's also absolutely NO grounds to believe that Whis was lying, given the context.
Come on. You're better than this. 😬
Originally posted by cdtm
But we were told (In the manga) that Jiren is equal to a GoD in skill alone. That doesn't necessarily mean he can match a GoD in all ways, like a Hakai erasure or a "universe buster".
The hell?
first of all, there is an alternate translation that states "In terms of battle power, Jiren is stronger than our God of Destruction." The very next manga chapter follows up with Goku literally asking, "So Jiren is more powerful than Belmod?" The anime further corroborates this by Whis noting that Jiren is the mortal that has surpassed his God of Destruction. Jiren is more powerful than Belmod. Period.
Secondly, that's not even relevant. SSJG Goku was stated to "wield power capable of destroying the entire universe," and partakes in the universal feats just as much as Beerus did. He's only gotten stronger up to now, and he's so weak relative to Jiren that the latter doesn't even bother to attack back, and deflects the former's punches with but a single finger, while suppressed.
Originally posted by cdtm
Even if we take Jiren as a universe buster at face value (And believe you me, lesser characters then Odin have the feats to prove they're universal level. They're just dismissed as PIS.. Vsbattle forums dismissed TWENTY TWO such feats from post crisis Superman.), Odin still has a lot more going for him then raw power.
Superman has nothing to do with this. Irrelevant.
That said, you straight up ignored my other points regarding Jiren: the mere presence and flow of his power shook an infinite void, (that's beyond just universal, his power is literally reaching infinity,) and Supreme Kai and Whis corroborate the notion that Jiren >> anyone the main cast has faced before, which would include Infinite Zamasu...the guy who was literally becoming ALL timelines.
Originally posted by cdtm
Esoteric powers, from mind screws to soul screws to molecular attacks (Think a difference between dynamite and a tiny lightsaber scapel)..Odin has ALL OF ASGARD on his side, with a wealth of powers that aren't exactly common in Dragon Ball.
Could ki based defenses even protect Jiren from magic?
Gonna be honest, not seeing haxx being a factor here. We've seen microbes compared to Jiren like SSJ Vegetto casually overcome matter manipulation, Jiren has the mind power/willpower to push back a KKx20 spirit bomb with just his glare while heavily suppressed, and has power that "transcends time." Dragon Ball characters tend to overcome haxx through sheer power, and let me tell you, Jiren is FAR more powerful than Odin.
Odin's full power attacks would be deflected by a single finger from Jiren, like Super Saiyan God was. I'm not sure Jiren would even find Odin worthy of attacking. 👆
Originally posted by carver9
I never admitted anything. I clearly told you in my last post that no one powers start at 0. Get a mod opinion on it or go away.
Nah. Snitching isn't my style. Anyone who can read, knows who's in the right here.
And I mean, come on. If KMC was even a fraction as authoritarian as a place like, say, CBR, most of us would have been run out a long time ago.
But probably you first... 😛