Seems like a very interesting argument, I'm on the fence personally, though I would assume unrestrained dark side Luke could probably pull it off, that's just a gut feeling though, and I expect the continuing debate to be informal for myself.
On the note of lightsabers, I've got a few humble thoughts:
1. That's assuming Sheev even indulges Luke with a lightsaber duel. If he's all out and not feeling like toying around with that "Jedi weapon", I doubt he'd even pull one out, unless himself and Luke were absolutely stalemated.
2. For people of this force power level and mastery, years of not fighting doesn't seem to really mean anything. Sheev didn't fight properly or practice for a decade and blitzed three Jedi swordmasters before Windu could even ****ing react. Plus, his accolades in dueling are extremely impressive. A master of all weapons, styles and is ambidextrous. He never goes a millimeter out of position with his saber.
In DE, he disarms Luke in a very short duel after just transferring to a fresh clone body.
Originally posted by samappo
Seems like a very interesting argument, I'm on the fence personally, though I would assume unrestrained dark side Luke could probably pull it off, that's just a gut feeling though, and I expect the continuing debate to be informal for myself.On the note of lightsabers, I've got a few humble thoughts:
1. That's assuming Sheev even indulges Luke with a lightsaber duel. If he's all out and not feeling like toying around with that "Jedi weapon", I doubt he'd even pull one out, unless himself and Luke were absolutely stalemated.
2. For people of this force power level and mastery, years of not fighting doesn't seem to really mean anything. Sheev didn't fight properly or practice for a decade and blitzed three Jedi swordmasters before Windu could even ****ing react. Plus, his accolades in dueling are extremely impressive. A master of all weapons, styles and is ambidextrous. He never goes a millimeter out of position with his saber.
In DE, he disarms Luke in a very short duel after just transferring to a fresh clone body.
This debate is between me and Ellimist. Don't interfere.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I was propping up Sidious since before Bane wank was at its peak. It's adorable that you think you're that important though.
Yeah, yeah, you have absolute monopoly over Legends characters, as well as decades of experience debating them. In other words, we are supposed to take you seriously.
Just a legit question, does DE Sidious have shatterpoint? Since he's a master of all known Jedi techniques, wouldn't put it beyond him to know it, even though he's not confirmed as having it [except in the new canon, he's the only person who has it so far lmao].
PS Not saying that shatterpoint is a Jedi technique.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, yeah, you have absolute monopoly over Legends characters, as well as decades of experience debating them. In other words, we are supposed to take you seriously.
I don't have a monopoly on anything. Though that's ironic considering you're defending a guy 'appointed' by Tempest to take over Sheevism.
But no, Az is actually woefully poor at Sheev wank.
Originally posted by samappo
Just a legit question, does DE Sidious have shatterpoint? Since he's a master of all known Jedi techniques, wouldn't put it beyond him to know it, even though he's not confirmed as having it [except in the new canon, he's the only person who has it so far lmao].PS Not saying that shatterpoint is a Jedi technique.
He's also confirmed to have learned all the greatest dark side techniques and every aspect of the Force in all its guises from over a million worlds from thousands of different cults including the Jedi Order, the Banite Sith and the Blackguard, the latter two having been hunting for Force knowledge all over the galaxy for a millenium, and the former having one of the two largest libraries in the galaxy containing info on the Force dating back 25 millenia that he had full access to as Emperor, not to mention the amount of different Force powers credited to him being "almost unlimited," on top of the rumor of him inventing new ones on a whim.
I'd say the chances of him not knowing Shatterpoint are very low.
Originally posted by Azronger
All you have here is pretty much speculation. Yes, you might think it is "intuitive," "fairly reasonable" and "safe to say" that Luke unlocked more of his potential and surpassed Sidious on his own, but "I think" is not evidence. I could just as well play the same game and retort that it [b]isn't a reasonable assertion (I'm not actually making that claim for the record, so don't try to shift the burden of proof on me; I was just demonstrating how inneffective your current argument is). Provide substantial proof for your case; claims made without evidence can be dismissed wihout evidence.Outside of circumstantial showings, what does Luke have to top Sheev? Sheev already absolutely curbstomped Luke in their first fight, and has feats like matching evenly with Yoda and an amped Mace Windu, canonically the two best Jedi duelists ever up to that point in history, only behind Anakin. I haven't seen anything from Vader or Caedus or anyone else Luke fought that'd suggest they're up to par with the guys Palpatine squared off against.
Wasn't gonna go for nut shots; don't worry.
How big were the dovin basals and Bast Castle? Unless you give me a specific size, those feats are unquantifiable. Same with Caedus - provide proof for why ragdolling that guy is impressive. Until then, I'm not seeing how any of them match up to telekinetically manipulating a nineteen-kilometer-long Super Star Destroyer (while also multitasking with other Force powers which I may get into later depending on how this debate goes):
Years before, one of a number of Super Star Destroyers commissioned by the Emperor had disappeared. In fact, as a demonstration of Palpatine's dark side powers, he had buried the Lusankya at the edge of Imperial City.
The Official Star Wars Fact File #9
Once completed, the Emperor himself used the dark side of the Force to hide the Lusankya beneath the surface of Coruscant's cityscape.
An Expanded Universe Starship from Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand (Book 12 of Star Wars: The New Jedi Order)
Q: In the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, under the Sith Battleship description it states that Exar Kun recovered his ship the ‘Corsair’ in the same way Darth Nihilus recovered the ‘Ravager’ on Malachor V. Does this mean that Exar Kun summoned the ship via the Force from the depths of the Massassi Temple of Sacrifice?
Peña: That said, looking over the text, it appears to me that a direct analogy with the Ravager and that your interpretation is essentially correct. (Another example, though in reverse, is Emperor Palpatine using the Force to bury the Lusankya, in plain sight, beneath the surface of the planet Coruscant.)
Abel G. Peña Messenger Question
And when Palpatine fought Mace and Yoda, he hadn't fought anyone on his level for 13 years either and seemed to be doing pretty well... no offence, but dumb argument, tbh. Experience rarely, if ever, matters in a fight between master-level Force users.
If he has advantages in any of those areas, you sure haven't provided proof of them yet. [/B]
^ not quoting properly so putting this here so I can copy-paste
All you have here is pretty much speculation. Yes, you might think it is "intuitive," "fairly reasonable" and "safe to say" that Luke unlocked more of his potential and surpassed Sidious on his own, but "I think" is not evidence. I could just as well play the same game and retort that it_isn't_a reasonable assertion (I'm not actually making that claim for the record, so don't try to shift the burden of proof on me; I was just demonstrating how inneffective your current argument is). Provide substantial proof for your case; claims made without evidence can be dismissed wihout evidence.
Outside of circumstantial showings, what does Luke have to top Sheev? Sheev already absolutely curbstomped Luke in their first fight, and has feats like matching evenly with Yoda and an amped Mace Windu, canonically the two best Jedi duelists ever up to that point in history, only behind Anakin. I haven't seen anything from Vader or Caedus or anyone else Luke fought that'd suggest they're up to par with the guys Palpatine squared off against.
How big were the dovin basals and Bast Castle? Unless you give me a specific size, those feats are unquantifiable.
Same with Caedus - provide proof for why ragdolling that guy is impressive.
Until then, I'm not seeing how any of them match up to telekinetically manipulating a nineteen-kilometer-long Super Star Destroyer (while also multitasking with other Force powers which I may get into later depending on how this debate goes):
And when Palpatine fought Mace and Yoda, he hadn't fought anyone on his level for 13 years either and seemed to be doing pretty well... no offence, but dumb argument, tbh. Experience rarely, if ever, matters in a fight between master-level Force users.
If he has advantages in any of those areas, you sure haven't provided proof of them yet.
Why would Lucas claim that Luke has the potential to become what his father could have been if even after intense power growths he still hasn’t matched Palpatine by like his sixties? Authorial intent clearly favors Luke > Sidious, as does powerscaling (mentioned above). If the feats favor Sidious, you haven’t provided any except that he can “use the dark side” to bury the Lusankya, which would mean all sorts of things.