Uh I think I provided reasons in the block you quoted.
Sure you did, but they were mostly your opinions and nothing factual or quantifiable. It’s good that you elaborated in your next post though.
Here’s a list of reasons including some of them and more:
1. The meditation is not emphasized as epic and noteworthy, which it would be if it were actually enough to match like 30 years of power progression from one of the fastest learning characters in the mythos. Indeed, from what I recall of the various sources that detail the fight, only a few of them even bother to mention Leia’s BM!3. Why would Leia, an untrained quasi-padawan in DE, have this ultra battle meditation beyond anything we’d seen in Star Wars? You could say it’s because of Luke and Leia’s connection but then later we see battle melds between Skywalkers in NJO and LotF and they do not have nearly the same impact.
The reason Leia’s Battle Meditation isn’t mentioned as a relevant part of the amp is because it was never credited as the source to begin with. The comic itself states the following:
It was Leia’s “intensity” (a rather vague term on its own but it was elaborated on as her light side aura in Handbook 3: Dark Empire and Luke himself notes Leia’s light has helped him break free of Palpatine’s influence in the comic) that continued to unlock resources in Luke. The word "unlock" implies something was previously locked, but was always there nonetheless - in this case, in Luke. In simple terms, Leia's presence is helping Luke draw out his own previously untapped potential, and given how it is noted she was "continuing" to do this, it can be inferred she was doing this during Luke's duel with the Emperor, which allowed the former to disarm the latter.
You have a point that it makes no sense if a random BM amp from a Leia with so little training would rival over 30 years of growth on Luke’s part, but the crux here never was the Battle Meditation to begin with. To call it an “amp” would be misleading in itself; it was more of a guiding hand to help Luke tap into his own potential that was always there deep inside him. The true question then would be whether Luke ever managed to actualize that much of it later on in his life to allow him to duplicate his performance unaided. And that’s for you to prove, since I’m not claiming either yes or no.
2. Luke doesn’t seem to notice it, he asks Leia to help him and she says she already is. This suggests the boost was modest in quantity and not transforming his Force abilities by orders of magnitude.
Yeah, sure the boost that Leia provided by joining her power to his was probably quite small, considering she wasn’t very powerful at that point. However, that in no way mitigates the fact that Luke was tapping into his own hidden potential, which would have been a very huge boost to his standard level at the time, given how utterly ginormous the gap between Luke and Sheev is (aside from that one circumstantial fight) in the story.
It should also be noted that Luke doesn’t only defeat Palpatine, he defeats him pretty easily. So you have to argue that amped DE Luke > peak Luke by a pretty considerable margin, and this is not supported by much of anything.
Where do you interpret “easily” from? The timeframe of a comic as a medium is inherently ambiguous unless flat out stated. Palpatine pushes Luke back with his strength at one point in the duel too:
Doesn’t suggest Luke had it easy at all.
Additionally: most sources do not imagine the gap between RotJ Palpatine and RotJ Vader to be astronomical, given that Lucas pens Vader to be about “80%” of Palpatine at the time. I think it’s a little silly to take the “80%” phrase literally except to mean “there’s a noticeable gap but it isn’t absolutely incredible”.
What are these “most sources” you speak of? I’d say the Emperor stomping and bringing Vader to his knees with a fraction of his power from across the galaxy counts as pretty much an “astronomical” gap. We can also add in the DLC of The Force Unleashed II where the Emperor one-shots Vader with Force Lightning, or just Vader generally shitting his pants when addressing his Master even from the other side of the galaxy, and Palpatine being labelled as “a god” and Vader his priest.
When the hologram of the Galactic Emperor finally spoke, it did so with a voice even deeper than Vader's. The Emperor's presence was awesome enough, but the sound of his voice sent a thrill of terror coursing through Vader's powerful frame. "You may rise, my servant," the Emperor commanded.
Immediately Vader straightened up. But he did not dare gaze into his master's face, and instead cast his eyes down at his own black boots.
"What is thy bidding, my master?" Vader asked with all the solemnity of a priest attending his god.
The Empire Strikes Back
Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together... we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's... discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.
The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8XN3p5nubFE
Also, if you wanna go by Lucas’ word, then he placed Vader on the same level as Maul and Dooku, so a 20% difference in power is quite significant indeed, considering how Sidious has effortlessly ragdolled Maul like eight or so times.
But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.
--George Lucas
Rolling Stone Magazine
Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam. He tried to get up, but realized he was already in the air, held aloft by the Force. Sidious slammed him into the floor. Then Maul was off the ground again, legs kicking for purchase in empty air. He could taste blood in his mouth. His head hit the wall with a sickening crunch.
A rhyme crept into his head, a nagging sing-song bit of poetry.
Far above, far above,
We don’t know where we’ll fall.
Far above, far above,
What once was great is rendered small.
Maul could no longer remember where he had heard it, or what it meant. He was broken, helpless, useless.
“No,” Maul heard himself gasp. “Have mercy. Please...”
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
Luke has gone from his ESB level self to matching RotJ Vader in sabers in like the course of a year. He then is described by Cronal as more powerful in the Force than Vader, and “soon” Palpatine, in the Shadows of Mindor, aka 6 months after Endor. Extrapolate Luke’s growth from there and you have to pull some very weird tricks to say he isn’t past DE Palpatine at any point in his career, given that we only know that DE Sidious had some more time to study and grow stronger, but it’s not as if he magically leapt forward by much more than what we were used to Sidious growing more powerful by.Luke is Vader’s match as a duelist by RotJ and described as stronger than him in the force just six months later by Cronal who, as mentioned above, speculates he’ll soon surpass Palpatine as well. This is really early into Luke’s power progression.
You will have to assert that:
1. Luke grows super powerful through RotJ but then suddenly stagnates and only grows at a marginal pace since then, or
2. Palpatine is like a million times more powerful than Vader despite Lucas’s comments, and Cronal was just talking out of his ass, as was Lucas when he said Luke could become what his father was supposed to.
Neither of these are supported by the evidence. Luke is described as growing substantially more powerful multiple times after RotJ, .i.e. by Palpatine himself in DE.
You misremember Cronal’s quote.
His devotion to the Way of the Dark had shown him a path to power greater than Palpatine could have ever dreamed: to transfer his consciousness permanently into a body that was young, that was healthy and handsome in a way Cronal had never been. A body more powerful in the Force than Vader, potentially more powerful even than Palpatine.
Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor
It says Luke’s body is more powerful in the Force than Vader i.e. it has more midi-chlorians i.e. Luke’s potential is greater. Nowhere does it say Luke is at the moment more powerful than Vader in his actualized power, nor does it ever say he would soon be a match for the Emperor, merely that his potential possibly eclipses Sidious’ own. Not to mention this is all Cronal’s opinion anyway, and he’s been isolated from the galaxy for the entirety of the original trilogy. If you want Luke’s own thoughts on his power in comparison to his father’s, which might be a bit more reliable, he has voiced them:
She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.
The Courtship of Princess Leia
Luke literally concedes Vader would have been able to one-shot him with the Force in Return of the Jedi, so your scaling falls apart. RotJ Luke is nowhere near Vader, Vader is nowhere near RotJ Palpatine, and DE Palpatine is far stronger than RotJ Palpatine. Good luck proving Luke one day caught up to Sheev.
(There are enough sources describing Luke and Vader as “evenly matched” for me to not immediately buy that Vader was just holding back in the actual duel, especially given that Luke appeared to be the one holding back).
Yeah there are plenty of sources saying they were evenly matched as swordsmen, but per Luke’s own admission he would have been creamed had it come to a contest of the Force.
Well his first fight against Luke is kind of irrelevant here, obviously.
I meant their first lightsaber duel - not the “fight” they had in Return of the Jedi - and in that the Emperor humiliated Luke without even needing to draw his weapon:
EMPEROR: Yes. You missed ONE clone. And one is all I need, for now. Look at me! I am YOUNG again!! I will live FOREVER!!!
LUKE: Not if I can help it! (slashes at the Emperor, who dodges the attack)
EMPEROR: (laughs) Too slow, Skywalker!
LUKE: (lunges at Palpatine again, screaming.)
EMPEROR: Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to Byss--to the very heart of the Dark Side?
LUKE: You forget, I am a Jedi Master now. And I KNOW something about the Dark Side!
Sound: Luke unleashes his OWN Force lightning on the Emperor. The old (young) man crashes against the wall.
EMPEROR: You try to use the Force against ME?!? All you've succeeded in doing in hurtling me in reach of my collection of Jedi weapons! As for your Dark Side knowledge--
Sound: The Emperor ignites his OWN lightsaber.
EMPEROR: Does it tell you how many other so-called "Jedi Masters" failed to vanquish me? Does your knowledge tell you that I have already beaten you?! Poor Jedi. Your kind will soon be extinct. And how fitting that one of their precious lightsabers brings an end to the Jedi delusion!!
Sound: Luke lunges. The two clash sabers, and duel viciously.
EMPEROR: What's the matter, Skywalker? Getting tired? Not quite as young as you were when you fought your father!
LUKE: (breathing hard) You have filled the galaxy with your darkness. But I have seen what my father could not see. I have seen that ultimately, the Dark Side will FAIL!!
EMPEROR: Jedi FOOL! In spite of the stories you tell yourself, I am the stronger! Did I not warn you?!? Now, take the consequences of your failure, like your father before you!!
Sound: Furious dueling--but the Emperor gets the better of Luke, forcing the elder Jedi's lightsaber out of his hands. Both lightsabers deactivate.
Dark Empire Audio Drama
It may not sound like much of a domination in the comic or the audio drama transcript, but listening to the audio itself it becomes much more apparent: Luke furiously swings his saber and grunts in between every line yet misses each time and the Emperor mocks him for being too slow. Once Palpatine draws his lightsaber, the ensuing duel is described as “brief” in Handbook 3: Dark Empire, and if he could dominate Luke unarmed, it’s not a stretch to say he could do so with a saber too. What has Luke done in the years following this that’d suggest he has bridged the gap and even surpassed Palpatine as you think?
People already seriously debate RotJ Vader vs. Windu in sabers, and mostly think Vader > Windu in the Force.
Textbook ad populum argument.
I had made a thread on this topic but tbh the dovin basal debates get a little bit of a mess so I’ll just drop this feat because I don’t think I need it.
Concession accepted.
He’s described as more powerful than Vader in the LotF: Invincible hardcover.
Not going to get into a debate about the validity of blurbs so I’ll accept it. However, it then becomes a question of how much more powerful than Vader he is. 100 %? 1%? 0.01 %? Palpatine by Return of the Jedi is already more than capable of stomping Vader-tiers, and if you wanna go by Lucas’ word like you were earlier then Vader is Maul-level, and Palpatine can ragdoll him as early as The Phantom Menace. How does dominating Caedus triumph over DE Sheev’s - who is infinitely more powerful than TPM Sheev and significantly more powerful than RotJ Sheev - best feats?
You know I buy that Palpatine used the Force to TP people watching the Lusankya, but I do wonder why he would need to use TK instead of, you know, engines or something.
Anyway, given that Vader’s fortress goes from the beach to the clouds and is large enough to hold a starship hanger, I think lifting it all at once and then crushing it to dust is more impressive than merely guiding the Lusankya’s fall from a pure TK perspective – but this is the best case scenario for you where you can establish that he actually uses TK. The best evidence you have is that an author on facebook messenger said it was “analogous” to other equally debated feats.If the feats favor Sidious, you haven’t provided any except that he can “use the dark side” to bury the Lusankya, which would mean all sorts of things.
I brought two other quotes to the table that stated as plain as day that the Emperor used the dark side to bury the Lusankya, that were not author quotes. You don’t bury a ship telepathically; you bury it telekinetically. No need to get creative with the English language here.
Regarding Bast Castle, quote for it reaching above the clouds? And how high were those clouds anyway? Clouds on Earth can be as low as 2 kilometers above ground; a Super Star Destroyer is 19 kilometers long - put that thing vertically and it sure as hell would reach above the clouds. And he didn’t just “crush” the fortress to dust like you imply; he focused on the greatest points of stress within the structure and pressed on them, and gravity did the rest of the work. Not satisfied with your feats for Luke so far.
Sure it does. Palpatine still had to train Maul and keep himself prepared for the Jedi, but after RotS made his contempt for dueling pretty clear and did not seem to have a motive to keep practicising. Not sure why experience isn’t going to matter.
It doesn’t matter per the examples I cited. And yes, Palpatine had to train Maul… so that the latter could become skilled in the first place… lol.
Why would Lucas claim that Luke has the potential to become what his father could have been if even after intense power growths he still hasn’t matched Palpatine by like his sixties? Authorial intent clearly favors Luke > Sidious, as does powerscaling (mentioned above).
Honestly, I think the idea that Luke had Anakin's potential got implicitly retconned with the Mortis stuff. Full potential Anakin is a successor to the Father, a universal level Force user and could ragdoll the Son and the Daughter at once. Luke even in his sixties struggles with Abeloth who wasn't even close to that level of power, even though he should only have had a few more decades to live/grow, and thus should've been somewhat relativistic to his full potential self.
Palpatine also extended his own lifespan beyond its natural limits, growing more powerful than he could have naturally, and also by feeding off of the colonists on Byss. Luke having more natural potential doesn't account for Palpatine growing in power via unnatural means.
The reason Leia’s Battle Meditation isn’t mentioned as a relevant part of the amp is because it was never credited as the source to begin with. The comic itself states the following:<snip>
Yeah, you’re describing the same set of facts that I did. I don’t see how this contradicts anything that I was saying, except for maybe semantics differences between “battle meditation” and “Force harmony” or whatever. My conclusion is based on the following premises:
(before I start, you should note that what you were showing in the comics was vs. Palpatine’s Force storm – it isn’t suggested that she played a substantial role in the lightsaber duel, just that a reasonable interpretation suggests that she was playing a role they didn’t even bother to mention during the duel itself)
1. That nobody out of universe acts like Leia was uber-amping Luke through the most powerful amplification feat in the mythos. The comic just adds it in during the Force storm scene and is like “oh btw maybe she was doing this before too”.
2. In-universe Luke doesn’t seem to notice Leia’s help. Your rebuttal, that Leia was unlocking what Luke already had, is what I said and doesn’t change the fact that it seemed to be a tipping point rather than a super soldier serum.
3. Luke is an insanely fast grower (ESB -> RotJ) with insane potential and decades to grow from Dark Empire.
Again, that Leia unlocks Luke’s potential rather than adding her own power doesn’t change what I’m saying (indeed, it bolsters it).
It’s clear then that FotJ Luke >>>>> DE Luke and DE Luke + some modestly important hidden resources > DE Sidious.
With this powerscaling, you have to pull off lots of mental gymnastics to put DE Sidious above prime Luke.
Where do you interpret “easily” from? The timeframe of a comic as a medium is inherently ambiguous unless flat out stated. Palpatine pushes Luke back with his strength at one point in the duel too:
Eh, I thought the comic made the duel look pretty short but whatever.
What are these “most sources” you speak of? I’d say the Emperor stomping and bringing Vader to his knees with a fraction of his power from across the galaxy counts as pretty much an “astronomical” gap. We can also add in the DLC of The Force Unleashed II where the Emperor one-shots Vader with Force Lightning, or just Vader generally shitting his pants when addressing his Master even from the other side of the galaxy, and Palpatine being labelled as “a god” and Vader his priest.
The first quote was Vader deliberately hiding his attempted treason to Palpatine and the second was well before Vader is described as growing more powerful ANH -> ESB and ESB -> RotJ.
Doesn’t Sidious tell Vader that Luke “could destroy us” in RotJ, presumably if he grew more powerful afterwards? Your model would suggest he meant “could destroy us in no less than forty years”.
Oh, and this quote from the RotJ novelization:
Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadnt seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
Luke saw fear in the Emperor—fear of Luke. Fear of Lukes power, fear that this power could be turned on him—on the Emperor—in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor—and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperors nakedest self.
mmm
Oh, wait, there’s more:
He would never go back to what he had been mentally. Weak, foolish, idealistic. Anakin had been much like Luke Skywalker was now. Mere...potential. Yes, the Force was strong in Luke, perhaps stronger than it had been in Anakin. But the boy needed to embrace the dark side, to learn where the real power was, to achieve his true promise. If he did not, the Emperor would destroy Luke. Vader did not want that.
From Shadows of the Empire.
It seems pretty clear from these quotes that what is intended in the PT-OT arc is true - Luke has the potential to surpass Sidious, who fears that Luke will. And presumably Sidious doesn't mean "he might surpass me in like 70 years!".
I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that Luke > Sidious. Remember that Palpatine at this point was already planning to reach / exceed what he was at in DE, with his talking about eventually having planet busting Force storms and whatnot. He's still terrified of Luke's potential. You at this point have to argue that Luke stagnated after RotJ despite all the evidence to the contrary.
(Vader himself also tanked RotJ Sidious’s lightning, as we discussed with Syndicate.)
Also, if you wanna go by Lucas’ word, then he placed Vader on the same level as Maul and Dooku, so a 20% difference in power is quite significant indeed, considering how Sidious has effortlessly ragdolled Maul like eight or so times.
That quote doesn’t suggest nearly as much as the Vader – Palpatine comparison; it says Maul and Dooku aren’t Palpatine, but you don’t know how large of a net he casts to put Maul and Dooku together. Meanwhile the 80% quote clearly indicates that Vader is noticeably below Palpatine, but it’s not a “oneshots infinite Vaders” as you’ve claimed. Lucas’s word is prone to change, but I see no evidence that this particular conception has.
(It could also just mean in terms of hierarchy and roles as temporary apprentices)
You’re probably right about interpreting the Cronal quote.
Luke literally concedes Vader would have been able to one-shot him with the Force in Return of the Jedi, so your scaling falls apart. RotJ Luke is nowhere near Vader, Vader is nowhere near RotJ Palpatine, and DE Palpatine is far stronger than RotJ Palpatine. Good luck proving Luke one day caught up to Sheev.
Well I never claimed RotJ Luke was a match for Vader in actualized Force abilities, I said they were equals as saber duelists. Remember that one of my points was that Luke > Sheev in sabers and any parity in Force ability should leave us to lean towards this reducing to a lightsaber fight and Luke winning.
I meant their first lightsaber duel - not the “fight” they had in Return of the Jedi - and in that the Emperor humiliated Luke without even needing to draw his weapon:
No that’s what I meant – this isn’t mid-DE Luke vs. DE Sidious so it doesn’t really matter, does it? Luke already progresses significantly by the end of DE.
(By the way that fight was on a DS nexus)
Textbook ad populum argument.
See above regarding Luke/Vader/Sidious powerscaling.
Not going to get into a debate about the validity of blurbs so I’ll accept it. However, it then becomes a question of how much more powerful than Vader he is. 100 %? 1%? 0.01 %? Palpatine by Return of the Jedi is already more than capable of stomping Vader-tiers, and if you wanna go by Lucas’ word like you were earlier then Vader is Maul-level, and Palpatine can ragdoll him as early as The Phantom Menace. How does dominating Caedus triumph over DE Sheev’s - who is infinitely more powerful than TPM Sheev and significantly more powerful than RotJ Sheev - best feats?
Given that Lucas doesn’t imply Vader is “Maul level” in that sense and you have not demonstrated any instance of Sheev ragdolling someone on the level of RotJ Vader.
I brought two other quotes to the table that stated as plain as day that the Emperor used the dark side to bury the Lusankya, that were not author quotes. You don’t bury a ship telepathically; you bury it telekinetically. No need to get creative with the English language here.
Wedge speculated that Palpatine used the dark side to TP people into not noticing the burial. That could easily be it – given that there’s no reason why he’d need to use the Force to lower a ship rather than engines.
Even if he did use TK, note that lowering a ship is much easier than lifting it up.
(cont)
Regarding Bast Castle, quote for it reaching above the clouds? And how high were those clouds anyway? Clouds on Earth can be as low as 2 kilometers above ground; a Super Star Destroyer is 19 kilometers long - put that thing vertically and it sure as hell would reach above the clouds. And he didn’t just “crush” the fortress to dust like you imply; he focused on the greatest points of stress within the structure and pressed on them, and gravity did the rest of the work. Not satisfied with your feats for Luke so far.
Link:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t629581.html
As you can see at the bottom he does crush it all. Tbf though I did forget the Lusankya was a super star destroyer.
As for other feats, I think the powerscaling is more conclusive but:
The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.
But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.
From Dark Nest.
I contend that this wasn’t hyperbole. Imagine what the speaker would do if it wanted to say that this description was literal without awkwardly saying “literally”? Exactly that – to belabor the alleged hyperbole far longer than one would a throwaway exaggeration.
In terms of combat applications of the Force it’s the most impressive demonstration in the mythos.
It doesn’t matter per the examples I cited. And yes, Palpatine had to train Maul… so that the latter could become skilled in the first place… lol.
It’s a factor to consider, just like Luke’s superior dueling abilities, powerscaling, etc.
Honestly, I think the idea that Luke had Anakin's potential got implicitly retconned with the Mortis stuff. Full potential Anakin is a successor to the Father, a universal level Force user and could ragdoll the Son and the Daughter at once. Luke even in his sixties struggles with Abeloth who wasn't even close to that level of power, even though he should only have had a few more decades to live/grow, and thus should've been somewhat relativistic to his full potential self.
Regardless of what your position is on the cancerous FP Anakin = universe buster suggestion, it’s pretty clearly stated in multiple sources that Luke’s potential >>> Sidious’s.
Palpatine also extended his own lifespan beyond its natural limits, growing more powerful than he could have naturally, and also by feeding off of the colonists on Byss. Luke having more natural potential doesn't account for Palpatine growing in power via unnatural means.
Well Sidious still thinks otherwise as of RotJ, after Byss.
Luke’s potential
Yeah, you’re describing the same set of facts that I did. I don’t see how this contradicts anything that I was saying, except for maybe semantics differences between “battle meditation” and “Force harmony” or whatever. My conclusion is based on the following premises:
No, you were claiming Leia’s Battle Meditation was causing Luke to unlock his potential. I claimed that the BM amp and Luke tapping into his potential are two entirely different boosts, and Luke would have done the latter regardless of whether Leia had amped him with BM/joined her power to his or not.
And I never mentioned Force Harmony in my post. That’s another entirely separate thing.
(before I start, you should note that what you were showing in the comics was vs. Palpatine’s Force storm – it isn’t suggested that she played a substantial role in the lightsaber duel, just that a reasonable interpretation suggests that she was playing a role they didn’t even bother to mention during the duel itself)
I already pointed out how it was noted in the comic Leia was “continu[ing] to unlock unexpected resources in Luke” which was stated just as they were starting to use Force Harmony on Palpatine. “Continuing” means that Leia was doing it before that event, and the only reasonable time to do it would be when Luke is dueling Palpatine - that notion is supported by Luke getting his ass handed to him by Palpatine in every single instance aside from that one fight, and also by Leia closing her eyes, concentrating and glowing during their duel.
1. That nobody out of universe acts like Leia was uber-amping Luke through the most powerful amplification feat in the mythos. The comic just adds it in during the Force storm scene and is like “oh btw maybe she was doing this before too”.
2. In-universe Luke doesn’t seem to notice Leia’s help. Your rebuttal, that Leia was unlocking what Luke already had, is what I said and doesn’t change the fact that it seemed to be a tipping point rather than a super soldier serum.
Literally a textbook argument from silence. Simply because no one makes note of something, doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing. And once more, the comic does state Leia was unlocking Luke's potential before they initiated Force Harmony on Palpatine, so on top of employing logical fallacies, you’re grasping at straws here.
3. Luke is an insanely fast grower (ESB -> RotJ) with insane potential and decades to grow from Dark Empire.Again, that Leia unlocks Luke’s potential rather than adding her own power doesn’t change what I’m saying (indeed, it bolsters it).
It’s clear then that FotJ Luke >>>>> DE Luke and DE Luke + some modestly important hidden resources > DE Sidious.
With this powerscaling, you have to pull off lots of mental gymnastics to put DE Sidious above prime Luke.
No one is disputing Luke’s learning rate is quick… while he is actually formally learning from a master. Because, in between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and in between Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire, Luke did stagnate, and I can prove this with feats:
He remembered his lightsaber. He reached to his belt, but the lightsaber was gone. Oh, no! Don’t tell me it’s lost! Luke angled his head, and spotted the lightsaber half buried in the snow on the floor below him.
He stretched out his arm, but the lightsaber was beyond his reach. Fortunately, Luke had another resource: the Force.
According to Ben, the Force was an energy field created by all living things. It surrounded and penetrated everything, binding the galaxy together. Since the Battle of Yavin, Luke had also learned that the Force could be utilized for moving small objects.
Still suspended from the cave’s ceiling, Luke extended his right hand toward the lightsaber. He tried to envision the weapon rising from the snow and arriving into his waiting glove. But nothing happened.
Luke was far from mastering the Force, or even fully understanding it, but he had a feeling that he might be trying too hard. He closed his eyes and relaxed his muscles. He also did his best to remain calm, for in the recesses of his awareness, he sensed that the wampa was moving in the cave. Did the wampa hear me trying to wrench myself free of the ice? Luke no longer heard the sound of the creature’s chewing.
Luke stopped thinking about the wampa. Again, he extended his hand and gazed upon the lightsaber in the snow. The Force binds us…
He heard the approaching wampa’s heavy footsteps.
The Force calls my lightsaber to me…
The lightsaber shot out of the snow and into Luke’s hand. Luke activated the weapon, and its blue energy beam blazed to life. As he raised the blade to cut through the ice that bound his legs, the wampa lunged for him.
The Empire Strikes Back Junior Novelization
Luke turned to look. Ten meters down the corridor, sitting in a patch of darkness beneath burned-out light panels, was a large metal box resting at a tilt on a half-seen tangle of cables and struts. Twin blaster cannon protruded from beneath a narrow viewport; the corridor walls immediately around it were warped and blackened, with a half dozen good-sized holes visible. "What is it?" he asked.
"Looks like a scaled-down version of a scout walker," Han said. "Let's go take a look."
"Wonder what it's doing here," Luke said as they walked toward it. The floor beneath their feet was noticeably warped, too. Whoever had been in there firing had done a thorough job of it.
"Probably someone brought it out of storage during the hive virus thing that killed everyone," Han suggested. "Either trying to protect the bridge or else just gone crazy themselves."
Luke nodded, shivering at the thought. "It must have been a real trick to get it in here in the first place."
"Well, we're sure not going to get it out," Han said, peering down at the tangle of debris where the walker's right leg had been. He cocked an eyebrow at Luke. "Unless...?"
Luke swallowed. Master Yoda had lifted his X-wing out of a Dagobah swamp once... but Master Yoda had been far stronger in the Force than Luke was. "Let's find out," he said. Taking a deep breath, clearing his mind, he raised his hand and reached out with the Force.
The walker didn't even quiver. Luke tried again; and again. But it was no use. Either the machine was wedged too tightly against walls and ceiling to move, or Luke simply didn't have the strength to lift it.
Dark Force Rising
In between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back Luke had three years to grow, yet evidently didn’t as he struggles to pick up a lightsaber right at the start of the latter novel. Yet when he is actually receiving instructions from an experienced mentor in Yoda and actively focusing on developing his talents, he does go on to challenge Vader in a very short amount of time, and match his father in lightsaber combat as an equal a year later.
After Return of the Jedi, Luke had no instructor and no real incentive to develop his powers in the absence of a looming dark side threat much more powerful than himself, so he did stagnate, as evidenced by him struggling to lift an AT-PT walker, which is even smaller than an AT-ST, even five years after Return of the Jedi.
At the end of The Last Command and beginning of Dark Empire Luke repeatedly states he sensed an immense shadow in the Force growing, so he got ready and trained to face this threat. In only a year, he went from failing to lift an AT-PT to casually knocking over and blowing up an AT-AT, which was made special note of by the rest of the cast. Then he further grows greatly under Palpatine’s tutelage.
Point being that yes, Luke’s learning rate is insane, but he does need to actively train to learn something in the first place. He does not magically grow at the same rate he did in between ESB and RotJ or in between TLC and DE by doing nothing. You cannot just take that and multiply it by 40 years and then claim he’s >>>>>>>> Palpatine because powerscaling. You can only do that if you first prove he did train intensely for 40 years straight with no breaks.
And therein lies the crux of my problem with your argument. Your claim of FotJ Luke >>>>> Potential unlocked DE Luke is baseless, since the amount of potential unlocked during DE is unspecified other than it obviously being an enormous amount given how he managed to beat Palpatine in his PU state but got repeatedly stomped right before and after the event in his base form:
EMPEROR: KNEEL!!!
NIST AND SHA: Yes, My Lord.
Sound: The two kneel before the Emperor. The Dark Force begins to rise up....
EMPEROR: I have watched you. You have advanced in submission to my will. I will make you Dark Jedi, extensions of my own power. Xecr Nist, you will replace Sedriss as my military commander.
NIST: (sounding darker) Yes, my Lord.
EMPEROR: Tedryn-Sha, you will be second in command.
SHA: (also darker and more evil-sounding) My Lord.
EMPEROR: I now vest you both with the full rank of Dark Jedi. Let this power enter you, and fill you with the knowledge and strength of the Dark Side of the Force, that is mine to give you!!!
Sound: The Dark Force rises to a wail.
NIST AND SHA: (moan and cry out in pleasure as the Dark Side envelopes them)
EMPEROR: (laughs) Can you fathom this mysterious power? In my hands, the Dark Side can bestow the most malevolent gift!
NIST: I FEEL the power!!
EMPEROR: Or it can cause the most delicious pain......
SCENE 3-8 EXT. OSSUS PLAIN
============================================
LUKE: (screams in agony)
KAM: Luke!! What's wrong?
LUKE: (still hurting) I.....I don't know. Something......a great disturbance in the Force......terrible.....and all too familiar....!
KAM: What do you mean?
LUKE: Sedriss wasn't lying. Emperor Palpatine is ALIVE!! Somehow, he's alive again!
Dark Empire II Audio Drama
SCENE 4-12 INT. HOWLRUNNER
=====================================================
Sound: The Howlrunner is now on the ground, engines off.
NIST: You fool. Skywalker almost sensed your presence--
SHA: Forgive me, my Lord, I had no idea he would be so sensitive.
NIST: He is a Jedi Master. We must careful.
SHA: How can we take him alive?? Even in his sleep, he may sense our approach!
NIST: WE will not make the first attack. I intend to use.....these.
Sound: Nist opens a case. Several insectile clicks, and skitterings.
SHA: Scarab droids!
NIST: Yes. Lovely creations, aren't they? A dozen of them will burrow into Skywalker's flesh, filling him with poison and pain. Then you and one other Dark Jedi will capture Skywalker. I will take the others to steal the children.
SHA: But.....what if Skywalker detects the Scarab droids?
NIST: He will not. The Emperor himself has promised.....a distraction.
SCENE 4-13 INT. LUKE'S QUARTERS - LATE THAT NIGHT.........
============================================================
Sound: Luke is asleep. His mind is filled with the roar of the Dark Side.
EMPEROR: (echoing in the dream) Skywalker......
LUKE: no.....no, not the Emperor.....
EMPEROR: Skywalker.....
LUKE: No.....I destroyed you!! You're DEAD!
EMPEROR: Twice you killed me. Twice have I returned. I cannot be destroyed. I am with you in your waking hours.....
LUKE: NO!!!
Sound: The skittering Scarab droids crawl all over the still out-cold Luke.
EMPEROR: I am with you in your dreams.......
LUKE: NO!!!!!
Sound: The Scarabs are now audibly chewing into Luke's flesh.
EMPEROR: You belong to me.
MORDI: That helpless figure is the dreaded Jedi Master Luke Skywalker?
SHA: Quiet. Let the Emperor's poison do it's work.
LUKE: Palpatine, I will fight you......
EMPEROR: Fight me? Skywalker.......I have already won. Even now, my Scarab droids fill you with Dark Side poison.
LUKE: Scarabs......
EMPEROR: And you will once again be mine!!!
LUKE: Nnoo......no......NNAAGHH!!!
Dark Empire II Audio Drama
In the former, Palpatine causes Luke agonizing pain from across the galaxy with only a fraction of his power, and in the latter, Palpatine quasi-mindrapes Luke from across the galaxy again. If PUDE Luke was only “modestly” above base DE Luke like you suggest, then the latter would also be relativistic to Palpatine, which isn’t true at all per the showings above.
PUDE Luke is massively beyond DE Luke, but granted, so is FotJ Luke. However, FotJ Luke being even above PUDE Luke remains an unproven notion so far. It’s your job to prove, since you’re the one making the claim.
Doesn’t Sidious tell Vader that Luke “could destroy us” in RotJ, presumably if he grew more powerful afterwards? Your model would suggest he meant “could destroy us in no less than forty years”.Oh, and this quote from the RotJ novelization:
Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadnt seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
Luke saw fear in the Emperor—fear of Luke. Fear of Lukes power, fear that this power could be turned on him—on the Emperor—in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor—and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperors nakedest self.Regardless of what your position is on the cancerous FP Anakin = universe buster suggestion, it’s pretty clearly stated in multiple sources that Luke’s potential >>> Sidious’s.
Well Sidious still thinks otherwise as of RotJ, after Byss.
The only thing you have there so far is that Full potential Luke > RotJ Sidious, which nobody disagrees with. That’s all you can take away from those quotes. Sidious doesn’t specify a timeframe; he just says one day Luke would surpass him - no proof he thinks it’s anytime soon. He also thought that Vader would eventually become a risk to his Mastery, which would take decades, so clearly when Sidious expresses such thoughts he is also considering things long-term instead of just short-term. Your argument has nothing to stand on.
Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader’s legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn’t know the power of the dark side. Vader’s real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments.
Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.
In some sense, it was survival of the fittest.
Fundamental to Vader’s growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.
Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might have attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn’t made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need everything in his power to shake Vader out of that despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.
Even at Sidious’s own peril…
[...]
More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader.
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that Luke > Sidious. Remember that Palpatine at this point was already planning to reach / exceed what he was at in DE, with his talking about eventually having planet busting Force storms and whatnot. He's still terrified of Luke's potential. You at this point have to argue that Luke stagnated after RotJ despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Sidious only most likely referred to Luke being able to destroy him currently as of the original trilogy. If you seriously factor in Palpatine’s end goals into this, the guy literally planned to become omnipotent:
“These pages unite one of the first Sith Lords with he who shall be the last. Each author’s voice echoes the era in which he or she held power, but the Sith Order has evolved over seven thousand years. The errors made by my predecessors will not be my own. Their triumphs will be nothing compared to my omnipotence.”
--Darth Sidious
Book of the Sith
With the knowledge gained from his Dark Side Compendium, he would create an eternal dynasty, with the descendants of Skywalker as its nobility, and Palpatine himself as its omnipotent ruler.
Dark Empire Sourcebook
Given the definition of omnipotence is literally the power to do anything, Palpatine can’t seriously be afraid someone surpassing his final form. You might argue that Luke would have caught up to Sheev far before his apotheosis, and I don’t disagree with that at all, but we once more run into the fact that Luke does indeed stagnate if he doesn’t actively improve himself, which I already provided proof for. Unless you definitively prove Luke trained hard every single day of his life after Dark Empire to attain his full potential, all this is entirely unquantifiable and your powerscaling falls apart. I don’t deny that he grew over time but you should just focus on his feats or find some other way to scale him above Palpatine.
You’re probably right about interpreting the Cronal quote.
Concession accepted.
Vader’s power compared to the Emperor
The first quote was Vader deliberately hiding his attempted treason to Palpatine
The narrator states that Vader feels terrified when the Galactic Emperor speaks and that Vader doesn’t dare look Sheev in the eye. It’s pretty explicit he is genuinely afraid of his master, even on the other side of the galaxy. Not sure how attempting to hide his treason contradicts any of that.
and the second was well before Vader is described as growing more powerful ANH -> ESB and ESB -> RotJ.
The Emperor striking Vader to his knees from across the galaxy happened right after the events of The Empire Strikes Back, which is when he is described at the height of his powers:
In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.
Insider 62
Palpatine literally stomped peak Vader from across the galaxy.
(Vader himself also tanked RotJ Sidious’s lightning, as we discussed with Syndicate.)
I’d like to see the quote Syndicate referred to first.
That quote doesn’t suggest nearly as much as the Vader – Palpatine comparison; it says Maul and Dooku aren’t Palpatine, but you don’t know how large of a net he casts to put Maul and Dooku together. Meanwhile the 80% quote clearly indicates that Vader is noticeably below Palpatine, but it’s not a “oneshots infinite Vaders” as you’ve claimed. Lucas’s word is prone to change, but I see no evidence that this particular conception has.(It could also just mean in terms of hierarchy and roles as temporary apprentices)
Given that Lucas doesn’t imply Vader is “Maul level” in that sense and you have not demonstrated any instance of Sheev ragdolling someone on the level of RotJ Vader.
Looked through the quote carefully again, and yeah, it seems you’re right. Lucas doesn’t say Vader is on par with them; he just says he is like Maul and Dooku in that he isn’t as strong as the Emperor. Your other interpretation is also valid, and I’ve never really thought about it that way before. I concede the point.
However, the 80% thing seems to only refer to RotS Sidious, I believe. I doubt Lucas differentiates between versions, but in the ancillary material there is a significant power gap between RotS and RotJ Sidious, and Vader is literal fodder to the latter, not even close to 80%.
Luke’s lightsaber prowess
Eh, I thought the comic made the duel look pretty short but whatever.
Concession accepted.
Well I never claimed RotJ Luke was a match for Vader in actualized Force abilities, I said they were equals as saber duelists. Remember that one of my points was that Luke > Sheev in sabers and any parity in Force ability should leave us to lean towards this reducing to a lightsaber fight and Luke winning.See above regarding Luke/Vader/Sidious powerscaling.
What even was the point in bringing up Vader if you don’t believe Luke could match him in the Force? I thought your point was that Luke could equal him with only a year of training and argue Vader was somewhat relativistic to RotJ Sidious and then try to powerscale Luke with more training to be >>>>>>> DE Palpatine. But if not, I completely fail to see what the point of this was, because Vader doesn’t get any backwards scaling from the Emperor whatsoever, in either sabers or the Force.
No that’s what I meant – this isn’t mid-DE Luke vs. DE Sidious so it doesn’t really matter, does it? Luke already progresses significantly by the end of DE.
That fight literally happened right before their final duel on the Eclipse. It wasn’t mid-DE Luke at all, lol. Give me the quote for him improving significantly even after that, still during the events of Dark Empire II and Empire’s End, if it exists.
(By the way that fight was on a DS nexus)
I knew you would bring this up. However, I believe the nexus didn’t factor into the performances very much at all, though. Luke himself was slipping to the dark side, or at least willing to abuse it there, so the nexus would arguably amp him or at least balance out the hinderance of his light side.
LUKE: You forget, I am a Jedi Master now. And I KNOW something about the Dark Side!
Sound: Luke unleashes his OWN Force lightning on the Emperor. The old (young) man crashes against the wall.
Dark Empire Audio Drama
The Emperor also grew more powerful in his base form than he had been during the duel even when amped by the nexus, as “more powerful than ever” would include even the instances where he was amped, so he’d be able to replicate his stompage of Luke regardless.
Yes, he grows continually more powerful in the way of the Dark Side.
Dark Empire Endnotes
Now it’s your job to prove Luke one day caught up to Sheev and surpassed him like you claim.
It’s a factor to consider, just like Luke’s superior dueling abilities, powerscaling, etc.
It’s such a minute factor one might as well ignore it entirely.
Force Feats
Wedge speculated that Palpatine used the dark side to TP people into not noticing the burial. That could easily be it – given that there’s no reason why he’d need to use the Force to lower a ship rather than engines.Even if he did use TK, note that lowering a ship is much easier than lifting it up.
Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. The text said he used the dark side to bury the ship. That’s as straightforward as you can get with the English language lmao.
Nobody claimed lowering it was more impressive that lifting it up.
As you can see at the bottom he does crush it all. Tbf though I did forget the Lusankya was a super star destroyer
Fair, although he did break it into small chunks before crushing them to dust, so he didn’t have to exert as much effort powering through the compressive strength of the entire structure.
You’ve still not given the fortress a specific size, since even if it reached above the clouds, it has a chance of being less than 15% of the Lusankya’s entire length, not to mention width and overall mass. I remain unconvinced it’s a better feat than Sidious burying a Super Star Destroyer while multitasking Force Drain, Force Illusions and Mind Domination on a galaxy-wide scale, all at once.
I contend that this wasn’t hyperbole. Imagine what the speaker would do if it wanted to say that this description was literal without awkwardly saying “literally”? Exactly that – to belabor the alleged hyperbole far longer than one would a throwaway exaggeration.In terms of combat applications of the Force it’s the most impressive demonstration in the mythos.
If that’s not hyperbole, then I have every right to use these:
This one shows Palpatine as the destroyer of worlds and one who displaced countless millions of beings.
Insider #88
Raw emotion was a consequence of leading a double life. While he relished his secret identity, he wanted at the same time for it to be known that he was a being who could not be trifled with; that he wielded ultimate authority; that merely to gaze on him was tantamount to glimpsing the dark matter that bound and drove the galaxy…
Darth Plagueis
A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
[...]
Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.
His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.
Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?
Darth Plagueis
In place of the Empire and the New Republic, Palpatine planned to bring about a new form of galactic governance. He would use the dark side to control everything and everyone in the galaxy.
What's more, he was capable of it.
The Official Starships and Vehicle Collection #64
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
The Comics Companion
The first quote says Palpatine is a planet buster. Palpatine equates himself with the dark matter that binds and drives the galaxy in the second quote, then tugs the actual dark matter in the galaxy and in the process rearranges the orbits of planets and stars in the third quote. The fourth quote states he can control everyone and everything in the galaxy with the dark side, and the fifth one claims his Force Storm can consume all of space. GG.
On a more serious note, I can actually definitively prove the quote is hyperbole. Abeloth was locked in the Maw, a prison made up of black holes for 25 000 years and couldn’t escape:
"Which makes them as crazy as a rancor on the dancing deck," Lando said. "Abeloth was locked in a black-hole prison for twenty-five thousand years. What kind of maniacs would think it was a good idea to bust her out?"
Fate of the Jedi: Vortex
There had been a crescent-shaped gap on the map. When Luke had touched it, an outline had appeared of a long crack in the shell of black holes. And it was into this void, this crescent, that Vestara was taking them. He and Ben had come this way, but not so far as to see this. In the center of the crescent was a pinpoint of brightness - a blue star.
Except it had changed since the last time Luke had seen it displayed at Sinkhole Station. And apparently, judging from her reaction, it had changed since Vestara had seen it. The crescent had been a sliver, like a few-days-old moon. Now it was a semicircle, like a half-moon.
[...]
Luke did not reply. More than ever, he was convinced that Sinkhole Station's job was to keep this being in line - keep the black holes surrounding her world, so that she couldn't escape. When he and Ben had been there, the station had clearly been falling into disrepair and it looked like the situation had worsened just in the short time they had been away. Now the area to which Abeloth had been confined had shifted ominously, and this bright blue star burned like a defiant flag run up a pole, daring them to come and get her.
Fate of the Jedi: Allies
The above establishes Abeloth has been trying to escape the Maw ever since she was imprisoned, and only succeeded once the Sinkhole and Centerpoint Station - designed to keep the black holes in place - malfunctioned and was destroyed, respectively. This led to the black holes moving apart, allowing Abeloth to escape.
Abeloth has been stated to be far more powerful than Luke, and the latter conceded Abeloth uses the Force on a level he never has, which would include when he rooted himself in the Force against Raynar:
It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat.
Fate of the Jedi: Vortex
"Abeloth." Luke repressed a sigh. "She's here. Somewhere. Experimenting. Using the Force with greater strength than I ever did, certainly."
Fate of the Jedi: Conviction
If Abeloth can’t escape a cluster of black holes due to their gravitational pull, then Luke sure as hell isn’t resisted the pull of one either, much less the pull of a supermassive one that was at the center of the galaxy. The statement is pure hyperbole.
So far not a single feat you've presented for Luke is better than the Emperor's best ones.
Quoting for copy-pasting because KMC is being weird:
Originally posted by Azronger
[B]Luke’s potentialNo, you were claiming Leia’s Battle Meditation was causing Luke to unlock his potential. I claimed that the BM amp and Luke tapping into his potential are two entirely different boosts, and Luke would have done the latter regardless of whether Leia had amped him with BM/joined her power to his or not.
And I never mentioned Force Harmony in my post. That’s another entirely separate thing.
I already pointed out how it was noted in the comic Leia was “continu[ing] to unlock unexpected resources in Luke” which was stated just as they were starting to use Force Harmony on Palpatine. “Continuing” means that Leia was doing it before that event, and the only reasonable time to do it would be when Luke is dueling Palpatine - that notion is supported by Luke getting his ass handed to him by Palpatine in every single instance aside from that one fight, and also by Leia closing her eyes, concentrating and glowing during their duel.
Literally a textbook argument from silence. Simply because no one makes note of something, doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing. And once more, the comic does state Leia was unlocking Luke's potential before they initiated Force Harmony on Palpatine, so on top of employing logical fallacies, you’re grasping at straws here.
No one is disputing Luke’s learning rate is quick… while he is actually formally learning from a master. Because, in between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and in between Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire, Luke did stagnate, and I can prove this with feats:
He remembered his lightsaber. He reached to his belt, but the lightsaber was gone. Oh, no! Don’t tell me it’s lost! Luke angled his head, and spotted the lightsaber half buried in the snow on the floor below him.
He stretched out his arm, but the lightsaber was beyond his reach. Fortunately, Luke had another resource: the Force.
According to Ben, the Force was an energy field created by all living things. It surrounded and penetrated everything, binding the galaxy together. Since the Battle of Yavin, Luke had also learned that the Force could be utilized for moving small objects.
Still suspended from the cave’s ceiling, Luke extended his right hand toward the lightsaber. He tried to envision the weapon rising from the snow and arriving into his waiting glove. But nothing happened.
Luke was far from mastering the Force, or even fully understanding it, but he had a feeling that he might be trying too hard. He closed his eyes and relaxed his muscles. He also did his best to remain calm, for in the recesses of his awareness, he sensed that the wampa was moving in the cave. Did the wampa hear me trying to wrench myself free of the ice? Luke no longer heard the sound of the creature’s chewing.
Luke stopped thinking about the wampa. Again, he extended his hand and gazed upon the lightsaber in the snow. The Force binds us…
He heard the approaching wampa’s heavy footsteps.
The Force calls my lightsaber to me…
The lightsaber shot out of the snow and into Luke’s hand. Luke activated the weapon, and its blue energy beam blazed to life. As he raised the blade to cut through the ice that bound his legs, the wampa lunged for him.
The Empire Strikes Back Junior Novelization
Luke turned to look. Ten meters down the corridor, sitting in a patch of darkness beneath burned-out light panels, was a large metal box resting at a tilt on a half-seen tangle of cables and struts. Twin blaster cannon protruded from beneath a narrow viewport; the corridor walls immediately around it were warped and blackened, with a half dozen good-sized holes visible. "What is it?" he asked.
"Looks like a scaled-down version of a scout walker," Han said. "Let's go take a look."
"Wonder what it's doing here," Luke said as they walked toward it. The floor beneath their feet was noticeably warped, too. Whoever had been in there firing had done a thorough job of it.
"Probably someone brought it out of storage during the hive virus thing that killed everyone," Han suggested. "Either trying to protect the bridge or else just gone crazy themselves."
Luke nodded, shivering at the thought. "It must have been a real trick to get it in here in the first place."
"Well, we're sure not going to get it out," Han said, peering down at the tangle of debris where the walker's right leg had been. He cocked an eyebrow at Luke. "Unless...?"
Luke swallowed. Master Yoda had lifted his X-wing out of a Dagobah swamp once... but Master Yoda had been far stronger in the Force than Luke was. "Let's find out," he said. Taking a deep breath, clearing his mind, he raised his hand and reached out with the Force.
The walker didn't even quiver. Luke tried again; and again. But it was no use. Either the machine was wedged too tightly against walls and ceiling to move, or Luke simply didn't have the strength to lift it.
Dark Force Rising
In between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back Luke had three years to grow, yet evidently didn’t as he struggles to pick up a lightsaber right at the start of the latter novel. Yet when he is actually receiving instructions from an experienced mentor in Yoda and actively focusing on developing his talents, he does go on to challenge Vader in a very short amount of time, and match his father in lightsaber combat as an equal a year later.
After Return of the Jedi, Luke had no instructor and no real incentive to develop his powers in the absence of a looming dark side threat much more powerful than himself, so he did stagnate, as evidenced by him struggling to lift an AT-PT walker, which is even smaller than an AT-ST, even five years after Return of the Jedi.
At the end of The Last Command and beginning of Dark Empire Luke repeatedly states he sensed an immense shadow in the Force growing, so he got ready and trained to face this threat. In only a year, he went from failing to lift an AT-PT to casually knocking over and blowing up an AT-AT, which was made special note of by the rest of the cast. Then he further grows greatly under Palpatine’s tutelage.
Point being that yes, Luke’s learning rate is insane, but he does need to actively train to learn something in the first place. He does not magically grow at the same rate he did in between ESB and RotJ or in between TLC and DE by doing nothing. You cannot just take that and multiply it by 40 years and then claim he’s >>>>>>>> Palpatine because powerscaling. You can only do that if you first prove he did train intensely for 40 years straight with no breaks. [/B]
Luke’s potentialNo, you were claiming Leia’s Battle Meditation was causing Luke to unlock his potential. I claimed that the BM amp and Luke tapping into his potential are two entirely different boosts, and Luke would have done the latter regardless of whether Leia had amped him with BM/joined her power to his or not.
And I never mentioned Force Harmony in my post. That’s another entirely separate thing.
??? The text says that Leia is continuing to “unlock unexpected resources in Luke”. Where is the evidence that Leia was also performing an independent battle meditation amp on Luke during the lightsaber duel? We get from the radio drama an offer from Leia to “add my power to yours” against the storm, but the unlocking potential is the only suggested amp that Luke is receiving at the relevant period.
If you’re trying to argue that some of this potential tapping was Luke’s own doing then, well, that would apply to this match-up as well and you’re basically conceding the debate, but I assume you don’t.
It seems pretty clear to me that the full extent of the external assistance Luke receives in his victory over Sidious is the mildly described, vague, almost placebo-like support that a barely trained not-even-padawan Leia is giving Luke that Luke himself doesn’t seem to notice, given that he asks Leia to do it when she already was. Given that I can easily debunk below your claim that Luke somehow stagnates after RotJ, it is incredibly obvious that 30 years of power growth from one of the highest potential and fastest learning Force users in Star Wars is more potent than the barely mentioned unlocking of DE Leia.
I already pointed out how it was noted in the comic Leia was “continu[ing]_to unlock unexpected resources in Luke” which was stated just as they were starting to use Force Harmony on Palpatine. “Continuing” means that Leia was doing it before that event, and the only reasonable time to do it would be when Luke is dueling Palpatine - that notion is supported by Luke getting his ass handed to him by Palpatine in every single instance aside from that one fight, and also by Leia closing her eyes, concentrating and glowing during their duel.
I know, I’m not denying that it happened. I’m denying that it’s close to as big as you think it was.
Compare it to Bane on Lehon, where there is a narrative emphasis on just how much the nexus is enhancing his connection to the dark side. Then Bane in RoT and DoE outstrips the younger Bane even with the nexus. Yet here we have Luke getting a vague “amp” from trainee Leia and now we’re expected to believe that in several decades Luke can’t close that gap? Nonsense.
Literally a textbook argument from silence. Simply because no one makes note of something, doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing. And once more, the comic_does state_Leia was unlocking Luke's potential before they initiated Force Harmony on Palpatine, so on top of employing logical fallacies, you’re grasping at straws here.
It’s not an argument from silence to observe that the significance of an event or factor is correlated to the extent that the variable is emphasize by in and out of universe narrators. To suggest otherwise is to deny that we can trust the narrative sources at all, which then makes this debate meaningless. E.g. we know that the shroud of the dark side is a greater factor to the PT Jedi’s inability to detect Darth Sidious than their diet.
Luke only needs a modest amp in DE to defeat Palpatine. He has the equivalent of a massive amp in this fight.
No one is disputing Luke’s learning rate is quick… while he is actually formally learning from a master. Because, in between_A New Hope_and_The Empire Strikes Back, and in between_Return of the Jedi_and_Dark Empire, Luke_did stagnate, and I can prove this with feats:
<snip>
In between_A New Hope_and_The Empire Strikes Back_Luke had_three years_to grow, yet evidently didn’t as he struggles to pick up a lightsaber right at the start of the latter novel.
Irrelevant. It’s commonly observed that your ability to improve at an activity is dependent on learning some fundamentals that Luke didn’t get until he encountered Yoda (Obi Wan taught him for like a few hours). But once you have that circle of knowledge your ability to self-learn accelerates greatly. This clearly happens with Luke as you see ESB -> RotJ.
Yet when he is actually receiving instructions from an experienced mentor in Yoda and actively focusing on developing his talents, he does go on to challenge Vader in a very short amount of time, and match his father in lightsaber combat as an equal a year later.
Uh, Luke wasn’t training with anyone in-between ESB and RotJ. That he has a truly momentous power growth in that year or so is exactly my point! He just needed to learn the basics from Yoda and then goes from not even trusting himself with a lightsaber to matching RotJ Vader in a duel.
After_Return of the Jedi, Luke had no instructor
He didn’t in between ESB and RotJ either, so this is a moot point.
(It should be noted that Luke proceeds to collect a vast literature of Force knowledge and training for a variety of sources over his prior self-teaching, to the point where he regularly ass-pulls Force techniques like shatterpoint and even vaapad according to Luceno, so the idea that he’s lost and doesn’t know what he’s doing is just absurd. Even when he was lost he was still growing in power absurdly quickly.)
and no real incentive to develop his powers in the absence of a looming dark side threat much more powerful than himself, so he did stagnate, as evidenced by him struggling to lift an AT-PT walker, which is even smaller than an AT-ST, even_five years_after_Return of the Jedi.
Oh come on, this is “Palpatine can’t TP Bail Organa” tier. We aren’t doing that, remember?
At the end of_The Last Command_and beginning of_Dark Empire_Luke repeatedly states he sensed an immense shadow in the Force growing, so he got ready and trained to face this threat. In only a year, he went from failing to lift an AT-PT to casually knocking over and blowing up an AT-AT, which was made special note of by the rest of the cast. Then he further grows greatly under Palpatine’s tutelage.
You’re kind of shooting your point in the foot here. You’ve conceded that as long as Luke is motivated to improve, he can at absurd rates.
[list]
[*]Was Luke not motivated to improve when he was trying to establish and teach a New Jedi Order?
[*]Was Luke not motivated to improve when the Yuuzhan Vong invaded?
[*]Was Luke not motivated to improve when he saw visions of a “dark man” taking over the galaxy?
[*]Was Luke not motivated to improve when he knew Abeloth was still alive?
[*]Has Luke not realized that a new galactic threat shows up on a regular basis and there’s a good reason to think a new one will too?
[/list]
Given that you’ve acknowledged that Luke goes from like, what, sub-AotC Anakin to RotJ Vader tier as a duelist in a year, and then goes from apparently being near RotJ Luke tier to impressing Wankatine in another year, with, according to you, a multiple order of magnitude increase in measurable telekinetic ability, yeah he’s grown quite a bit by FotJ.
Point being that yes, Luke’s learning rate is insane, but he_does need to actively train to learn something in the first place. He does not magically grow at the same rate he did in between ESB and RotJ or in between TLC and DE by doing nothing. You cannot just take that and multiply it by 40 years and then claim he’s >>>>>>>> Palpatine because powerscaling. You can only do that if you first prove he did train intensely for 40 years straight with no breaks.
Well you’ve established that he doesn’t need to train “intensely for 40 years straight with no breaks” because you inadvertently admitted that he makes absurd growths in power with like year-long bursts of training, and we know that he regularly encounters galactic threats so yeah, he’s doing a lot of training.
So, let's summarize this portion of the debate:
But let’s consider Luke’s power growth more carefully. Luke clearly grows massively from ESB to TUF – but after that it’s far more difficult to determine if he improves much at all. He may have still through Dark Nest, but then by LotF and FotJ the common “Luke has grown so much moar powerful!” claims made in and out of universe disappear. Luke learns specific techniques but he is implied to have plateaued.
This has two obvious potential explanations:
1. Luke just got lazy and stopped training.
2. Luke reached most or all of his potential.
The first is idiotic (Luke was having visions of a dark man ruling the galaxy in LotF, he very actively participates in training Jedi / going on missions / learning new techniques), so the second is the most parsimonious explanation. And so Luke is near his FP and should be above Sidious.
And therein lies the crux of my problem with your argument. Your claim of FotJ Luke >>>>> Potential unlocked DE Luke is baseless, since the amount of potential unlocked during DE is unspecified other than it obviously being an enormous amount given how he managed to beat Palpatine in his PU state but got repeatedly stomped right before and after the event in his base form:In the former, Palpatine causes Luke agonizing pain from across the galaxy with only a fraction of his power, and in the latter, Palpatine quasi-mindrapes Luke from across the galaxy again. If PUDE Luke was only “modestly” above base DE Luke like you suggest, then the latter would also be relativistic to Palpatine, which isn’t true at all per the showings above.
PUDE Luke is massively beyond DE Luke, but granted, so is FotJ Luke. However, FotJ Luke being even above PUDE Luke remains an unproven notion so far. It’s your job to prove, since you’re the one making the claim.
Strawman. Whether Palpatine was on a nexus aside, that he can hurt Luke, who doesn’t know where he is and didn’t think he was alive, and then later give him nightmares in his sleep has very little to do with how well they would do in an actual confrontation. It would be silly to say that RotS Palpatine > RotS Anakin because he may have planted his visions or that Jacen > Luke because he fooled him with illusions once. Or, for that matter, is Tenebrous’s matter > Yoda + the entire PT Jedi Order because he pierced their light-side galaxy nexus?
A prepped Palpatine vs. a sleeping Luke is an absurd comparison.
The only thing you have there so far is that Full potential Luke > RotJ Sidious, which nobody disagrees with. That’s all you can take away from those quotes. Sidious doesn’t specify a timeframe; he just says one day Luke would surpass him - no proof he thinks it’s anytime soon. <snip>
OK, here is where your lines of reasoning entangle and defeat themselves. You’ve claimed:
1. Palpatine only thinks Luke will surpass RotJ Palpatine.
2. Palpatine thinks Luke may take decades to surpass him.
3. Palpatine will become a God soon, or early enough that he wouldn’t care
about comparing Luke to his future DE self.
…wait, doesn’t the third claim contradict the first two? If Palpatine only cares about comparing himself to Luke in the short term, this must mean that Luke can either surpass RotJ Sidious within like 5-15 years of the movie, or that he can surpass DE Sidious within like 15-20. Either kind of wins the debate for me, doesn’t it?
I'm going to gloss over the Vader vs. Sidious section because I don't think it's very relevant. If there are any particular points that you think are important, please feel free to let me know.
Two that I would like to go over:
1. "The duel was very close" - really?
That one shot where Palpatine makes Luke struggle a bit looks just as significant as when Maul made Palpatine "struggle" in TCW. Of course, you can argue that the comic writers were just being lazy and made an epic duel look really quick because they were running out of ink...but it seems pretty clear that Luke won with a noticeable gap.
2. "Luke was benefitting from the DS nexus too!"
There's no comparison between an amateur Luke half-tapping into the dark side (which may or may not have even helped him) and Palpatine, the dark lord of the sith, using it. This is especially the case as Palpatine specifically calls Luke foolish for confronting him on Byss!
This section is going to be a little lazier than the powerscaling/potential from earlier because, frankly, that’s a lot more conclusive and where Luke clearly goes above Sheev. If feats are “a wash”, then Luke wins by the above.
Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. The text said he used the dark side to bury the ship. That’s as straightforward as you can get with the English language lmao.
Fair, although he did break it into small chunks before crushing them to dust, so he didn’t have to exert as much effort powering through the compressive strength of the entire structure.
You’ve still not given the fortress a specific size, since even if it reached above the clouds, it has a chance of being less than 15% of the_Lusankya’s_entire length, not to mention width and overall mass. I remain unconvinced it’s a better feat than Sidious burying a Super Star Destroyer while multitasking Force Drain, Force Illusions and Mind Domination on a galaxy-wide scale, all at once.
If that’s not hyperbole, then I have every right to use these:
First, let’s consider what this feat means even if it is hyperbole.
UnuThul:
1. Had the combined Force potential of trillions of killiks. To put that in perspective, it’s thousands of times the power of Byss, which is apparently a big deal for Palpatine. And UnuThul doesn’t merely drain or harness their power, he basically IS them, and directly accesses their potential.
2. Bends turbolaser bolts. I think you were there on the chat where Ant showed the quote, right? We know from the ICS II that turbolasers are lightspeed weapons with sublight tracers, and that the only case this ever happens is in LotF: Fury where Centerpoint Station creates a singularity that bends turbolaser bolts, something described by the narrator as “impossible”. In other words, UnuThul can essentially do something that you only see powerful black holes do in that distance.
And yet Luke no-sells his Force push at point blank range, and then proceeds to ragdoll him.
Tell me again how Palpatine is going to beat Luke from a distance with the Force?
This one shows Palpatine as the destroyer of worlds and one who displaced countless millions of beings.
Insider #88
Raw emotion was a consequence of leading a double life. While he relished his secret identity, he wanted at the same time for it to be known that he was a being who could not be trifled with; that he wielded ultimate authority; that merely to gaze on him was_tantamount to glimpsing the dark matter that bound and drove the galaxy…
Darth Plagueis
Spurious. I gave specific reasoning for why the Dark Nest quote is literal, and you’re just randomly tossing out quotes and declaring them literal with no analogous rationale.
A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
[...]
Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.
His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births._But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments._In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.
Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?
Darth Plagueis
See above. Though even if this quote is literal, it’s not the same as Luke doing it in a fight.
In place of the Empire and the New Republic, Palpatine planned to bring about a new form of galactic governance. He would use the dark side to control everything and everyone in the galaxy.
What's more, he was capable of it.
The Official Starships and Vehicle Collection #64
He was capable of the plan, yes. Had Luke and co. not defeated him he probably could have put it to fruition.
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
The Comics Companion
See above. This doesn’t have the same arguments for literalness as Luke’s.
On a more serious note, I can actually definitively prove the quote is hyperbole. Abeloth was locked in the Maw, a prison made up of black holes for 25 000 years and couldn’t escape:
1. Abeloth would have to overpower not only the black holes but Sinkhole station’s hold on those black holes too. We know that its brother station, Centerpoint, can casually star bust and was implied to have arranged much of the galaxy, sooo…
2. Nobody said that Luke could move a supermassive black hole.
So far not a single feat you've presented for Luke is better than the Emperor's best ones.
Match Dark Nest’s combat feat, then.