Almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence, the people of Byss find their life energies constantly leeched off during the Emperor's vile machinations.-- The Dark Empire Endnotes
This is in reality from Byss and the Deep Core, Nova. We've been misquoting the source in our RT's; fixing it should be prioritized.
Good job otherwise. It still blows my mind that there exist so many silly misconceptions about the Emperor's Byss feat.
Thanks, and alright, I'll fix it.
EDIT: Here it is if anyone's curious. http://web.archive.org/web/20100226123647/http://wizards.com:80/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050414planet1
To be fully honest, that particular source, you posted, doesn't state the amount of time, nor the method he used to achieve the Byss drain. That source only focuses on the emperor himself, though. It's just like Vitiate's description when it was said that he used a ritual to consume the life on Nathema whereas the other Sith Lords were left out of the picture during the ritual.
"Fully honest" lol. The method is drain life. If the insinuation is that it's a ritual, you need evidence of that before you can make the assertion. As for time, it's continuous. He was doing it by 19 BBY, so if you're asking about setup time, then none's implied. But obviously that is one of the more nebulous aspects of the feat.
The thing is there's no reason to believe Palpatine needs the adepts as the feat was performed effortlessly. It's fair to assume that he just allowed them to feed off Byss with him rather than needing them.
What do you mean by accumulated? It says the feat was performed slowly, that's what matters. It can't be used to judge his personal on the spot strength or ability. The fact that it was carried out by unknown means and we know he had help from his acolytes just further make it pointless for comparisons.
And what do you mean by happening? The people were fully enslaved or merely that the process had started?
Forget that, I misspoke. I assumed the effect would accumulate for some reason. Of course it'd be slow, as he's trying to derive a constant stream of energy, not kill them.
And of course it can't be directly taken as an on-the-spot showing because in a fight, nobody is going to wait that long to be drained. The entire point is that the process could be operated remotely and effortlessly by the Emperor among other such feats, which the vast majority of other characters can't boast. We know the adepts joined in, not that they were required. Presumably he just allowed his adepts to fuel their own experiments with local life energies. It doesn't really alter the feat, nor does the slowness unless you assume that if Sidious was in proximate range and using greater effort he still couldn't accelerate the effects?
We know the draining was underway by 19BBY. That's the important part. Nobody's pretending it's comparable to Katarr in terms of devastation. The impressiveness of the feat lies in the fact that it, along with various other things, were being done by the Emperor without conscious effort and while being physically distant from the location.
Except we have no clue how it works. The fact that he was only able to slowly enslave the population (which was merely "several million" at first) and start draining them suggests that its not nearly as effortless as you claim. There could easily be some sort of ritual, set up or artifact that enables the remote draining. In fact that seems far, far more likely than him somehow being able to do it from across the galaxy without effort, which is simply preposterous.
And yeah, my point is that we don't know how involved the adepts were. It makes the feat unquantifiable. A quote does say though, that "Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts". Suggesting that they did in fact aid him in performing the process.
Also, Nihilus only drained millions as stated in the TOR Codex. The populace of Byss was approaching 20 billion, so the Emperor's feat is thousands of times greater in just sheer numbers.
Then there's the fact that he was also TP'ing them simultaneously, while spreading his power thin between his Dark Side Adepts and Emperor's Hands (sorta like Vitiate's Children of the Emperor but better), and diverting a large chunk of his strength on dominating the Imperial Military. And it was still both effortless and transgalactic... yeah, there's no comparison. Sheev is way out of Nihilus' league.
Slowly draining 20,000,000,000 people and devastating the surface of a planet, as well as draining the Jedi Conclave; including senior Jedi masters such as Vandar, and an entire conclave of millions of Force sensitives. Isn't comparable at all.
Oh and, how the hell is what Sheev did comparable to what Vitiate did? Vitiate empowered each of his Children beyond what a Sith could achieve. He further empowered the First Son to be strong enough to shroud all of his siblings with the dark side of the Force and was simultaneously teleporting faster than the Barsen'thor could react, as well as repeatedly flooring him with telekinesis and Force lightning. Not to mention maintaining control over his legion of Imperial Guard. That's not taking into account how he simultaneously suppressed the extreme powers of Vaylin. Nor the power he put into constantly controlling the Dread Masters. Nor the power he was continuously putting into finally breaking Revan's strength. Nor the power he used to dominate a swathe of Jedi including the Hero of Tython. Nor stalemating Sel-Makor in the heart of the entity's power.
But okay.
Relevant sources... but you cited a bunch of sources that call Byss a dark side nexus after Palpatine's arrival. You went as far as to cite DE, for heaven's sake. The only point you have that's valid is for the Rakatans selecting worlds strong in the Force, which is fair enough but that was a great many millennia before Palpatine's time. If you take a look at Force nexuses, especially dark side nexuses, they diminish after many years of inactivity (with respect to Force use) — Korriban, Yavin IV, Onderon, etc. Now, there are examples of worlds such as Lehon and Dxun whose nexuses seemed to mostly persevere for millennia, but that's still only two or three thousand years, as compared to more than twenty-five thousand with Byss. Certainly the fact is that by the time of the rise of the Empire, Byss was not a renowned dark side nexus. It becomes known as a powerful dark side nexus because of Palpatine in fact, as clearly stated in Byss and the Deep Core: https://i.imgur.com/SVZlLP4.png
None of the sources I provided claim or directly support the claim that it was Sidious who turned the planet into a nexus, as opposed to the single source you provided. And yes, generally Nexuses do diminish, I don't dispute that, but the fact remains the planet was a nexus before Palpatine and it was a nexus during and after Palpatine, and we have no evidence that the Byss nexus specifically ever diminished, so assuming it did is unsupported.
This doesn't address the crux of the feat which is that Palpatine actually feeds on them when he's away from the planet, ie. not benefitting from the nexus. It's outright stated that the Emperor is forever draining the inhabitants of Byss:
Still, he was draining the world that was the site of a nexus, he was getting the power from that nexus, and that power was feeding him and keeping him alive, in fact, that's ALL it was doing, though tha'ts not exactly the point. He was still draining a nexus, so he was still getting a boost to what he was absorbing. He wouldn't have gotten as much energy without the nexus. So, even being away from the planet, the nexus was affecting him, albeit indirectly.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6229253-byssfeatunimpressive.jpg
As we all know, he does not spend all his time on Byss; in fact, he spends a great deal of time off-world. Certainly one has to account for the fact that in almost every source in the OT era where we see Palpatine, he is not on Byss, and he has a great many of other retreats as well. Yes, he's amped while he's on Byss (thanks to himself), but he also keeps it up while he's not on Byss, when he's not amped. So no, he doesn't require the nexus.
Considering Sidious was dying, and draining the world was being done specifically to prevent him from dying (as shown by the scan I provided), I would disagree. He obviously chose that world because it was already strong in the Force, before many of the structures were even built, the planet was already amping Vader, so evidently it was a nexus before Palpatine began his work and stay.
That's not true, actually. Nihilus is also enslaving his crew and feeding from them, and obtains a flow of power from the Ravager according to the Prima Guide. https://i.imgur.com/YJOqH5f.png
Oh I don't disagree with you here, there are things my friend thinks about Nihilus that I simply don't agree with. I just posted his thread for the Sidious quotes and points, and I didn't feel like sorting through all of them specifically for the ones I wanted, lol. But yeah, I don't disagree with you on this part.
So he was amped when he drained Katarr, but Palpatine was able to drain Byss without being amped. wink
I covered this already.
Funny that you say quotes shouldn't be taken if they're contradicted but here you are taking a clearly hyperbolic bit of prose at face value. If Nihilus can annihilate worlds with a thought, why did he bother with telekinetically incapacitating Traya before draining her? Why did he have to stun the Exile's party, then drop the stun when he attempted drain on the Exile? Why did he blast other worlds into ruin despite draining them? Why did he prep for Telos[?/QUOTE]This is another of those things I don't agree with him on. I fully believe that Nihilus draining worlds by speaking, or with a thought, is hyperbole, I think you'd need to be ignorant or just a Nihilus wanker to think those quotes are literal.
For the rest of this point, I'll get back to you on this.
[QUOTE]Spared after finding her unconscious on the planet, sure. Is there proof that he spared her from the initial attack? That's a level of control over Drain that is pretty remarkable; a notion contradicted by Kreia who suggests that he can't really control his power, rather that his power controls him. Even Visas' dialogue implies that Nihilus roamed the planet after ravaging it, then spared Visas upon discovering her body. Not so much having targeted her for survival all along and sparing her from the actual Drain attack.
I don't actually disagree with this. Again, I posted it so you could see specifically the Sidious parts. For future reference, I'm gonna just not respond to points pertaining to Nihilus, because that wasn't the intention I had. I apologize for not specifying that, and wasting your time by having you assume the Nihilus points were relevant to what I was trying to show.
Actually, that quote doesn't say anything. "Vampiric hunger" in that Sidious liked the experience of the Drain and wanted more, sure, but that's nothing compared to Nihilus who was literally possessed by hunger to the point of no longer being in control of his power and "being bodily macerated" per the KotORCG.
Actually, it implies a lot. The word "vampiric" unravels your entire point here. To be vampiric is to be like a vampire, and vampires REQUIRE blood to survive, constantly searching to feed to sate their literal blood thirst. The use of this term to describe Sidious' eating habits in regards t drain, implies the same. Constantly draining the world and looking to feed to sate his hunger.
That's an RPG game mechanic, lol. I don't count this.
Pity, Leland Chee DOES count it.
"Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction."
- Leland Chee
Moreover, the fact remains that they're all willing because Sidious controlled their minds, even if some were willing before. This is a repeatedly stated fact:
That does't make the feat any more impressive, because as pointed out by my friend, their willingness makes the feat easier regardless. So he dominates the population, feeds on the nexus to sustain himself, which in turns gives the strength to keep draining and maintain his hold over the populace. It's a loop, one aspect is dependent on another, hence part of why I feel this feat is so circumstantial.
Vitiate has only ever faced Revan as a Jedi, though. I don't agree with SoR Revan being above Yoda either but we can discuss that later. The Dread Masters haven't done anything comparable to Plagueis. Their alterations of Oricon were the product of experimentation and presumably rituals. I don't really prop up the Naboo feat anymore but this is just not the same.
I know this......
Alright.
Yet you view Plagueis' and Sidious' galactic unbalancing feat is attributable to them as an indicator of their power? Correct? That's a bit of a double standard, and I've explained numerous times, and in depth, why their unbalancing feat isn't relevant to their power available in combat.
--------
Apologies if I missed anything, some stuff I skipped on purpose, other things I may have just missed.
None of the sources I provided claim or directly support the claim that it was Sidious who turned the planet into a nexus, as opposed to the single source you provided. And yes, generally Nexuses do diminish, I don't dispute that, but the fact remains the planet was a nexus before Palpatine and it was a nexus during and after Palpatine, and we have no evidence that the Byss nexus specifically ever diminished, so assuming it did is unsupported.
??? We have three data points for Byss:
1. Thousands of years ago, it was a dark side nexus
2. When Palpatine came, it wasn't
3. Due to Palpatine's efforts, it became one (again)
2a. This is exactly what has happened to other powerful dark side nexuses.
Where is the confusion/contradiction?
Whether Byss was a dark side nexus before or after Palpatine; it is irrelevant. Byss was already a strong Force nexus. So, normally, Sidious' power would be boosted. And it isn't his drain(alone) that turned Byss into a focal point of the dark side, but also the various experiments he had conducted there over the years. The source, posted by Azronger, clearly explains that the transformation of Byss into a dark beacon was due to Sidious' experiments and his dark side powers. He and his adepts were slowly altering the climate of the planet via the Force, leeching off of life-energy their follower citizens, and god knows what else they did.
The conversion of Byss cannot be attribute to Darth Sidious alone; nor is there any proof he can perform a quick drain on his own.
And, there is no proof that Sidious was constantly draining Byss from another corner of the galaxy. This is just a laughable assumption.
As about SunRazer's proof for Nihilus absorbing power from the Ravager-
When did that more exactly happen during the game?
Nihilus never attempted to drain his Ravager during Meetra's confrontation with him. He just tried to drain the Exile and it backfired at him. Whatever was written in that guide completely contradicts what happened in the game. There's no mention in the game of the Ravager being a dark side nexus. By the Ravager, it refers to the crew. So you can't use that as proof that the Ravager increased his power(because those zombies wouldn't provide him the necessary power to perform such tremendous feat of drain). If the Ravager is a dark well, Nihilus would be responsible for its creation. Unless you want to say that those dark nexuses created by Palpatine empower him likewise(Eclipses I am looking at you)
Whoever(David Hodgson) wrote that line is dumb as f**k.
Originally posted by Azronger
Also, Nihilus only drained millions as stated in the TOR Codex. The populace of Byss was approaching 20 billion, so the Emperor's feat is thousands of times greater in just sheer numbers.Then there's the fact that he was also TP'ing them simultaneously, while spreading his power thin between his Dark Side Adepts and Emperor's Hands (sorta like Vitiate's Children of the Emperor but better), and diverting a large chunk of his strength on dominating the Imperial Military. And it was [b]still
both effortless and transgalactic... yeah, there's no comparison. Sheev is way out of Nihilus' league. [/B]
Ok, let me break it down to you:
1. Nihilus drained millions, but not only that, he devoid planets of their Force energy. And he was only after those rich in Force energy.
2. Sidious never drained billions by himself. He did it collectively with his adepts, and over a long period of time. And he never devoid planets of their Force energy. He and his adepts drained a bunch of defenseless beings who were also in worship with them.
3. Nowhere is specified the drain was transgalactic. So quit assuming that.
4. There is no mention of telepathy at stake. The citizens were worshipping him and his adepts; no mental control needed. Palpatine specifically selected them to live on Byss due to their idolizing of him. Nowhere does it state that he mentally controlled them because he had no reason to. It was only stated that they kept them in a state of bliss. That doesn't have to do anything with telepathy. If you still want to believe that, then that fits more the description of a Sith ritual. It was already stated in sources that Palpatine and his adepts had conducted experiments on Byss.
5. As about Xecr Nist and Tedryn-Sha, weren't they already Force-sensitive before being anointed by Palpatine?
And it's not like Xecr and Tedryn were on the level of the Children of Emperor.
6. Do you have any evidence that Palpatine offered portions of his personal power to all of his servants?
Originally posted by darthbane77
None of the sources I provided claim or directly support the claim that it was Sidious who turned the planet into a nexus, as opposed to the single source you provided. And yes, generally Nexuses do diminish, I don't dispute that, but the fact remains the planet was a nexus before Palpatine and it was a nexus during and after Palpatine, and we have no evidence that the Byss nexus specifically ever diminished, so assuming it did is unsupported.
No, but they don't disprove it either. And more crucially, they all cite Byss being a dark side nexus AFTER Palpatine arrived. Every one of them mentions Byss already being one of Palpatine's retreat worlds, except the Luke one which is from DE — almost three decades after Palpatine's arrival.
So no, you've only shown that it was a some sort of nexus some twenty-five to thirty thousand years prior to Palpatine. No source makes any explicit mention of its properties as a nexus until Palpatine comes and corrupts it; the dark side nexus is entirely attributed to Palpatine in the source I quoted and the ones you cite all talk about Byss after Palpatine has set up there. So you've not shown me anything.
Still, he was draining the world that was the site of a nexus, he was getting the power from that nexus, and that power was feeding him and keeping him alive, in fact, that's ALL it was doing, though tha'ts not exactly the point. He was still draining a nexus, so he was still getting a boost to what he was absorbing. He wouldn't have gotten as much energy without the nexus. So, even being away from the planet, the nexus was affecting him, albeit indirectly.https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6229253-byssfeatunimpressive.jpg
That's not how it works, lol. Palpatine is not the Sceptre of Marka Ragnos. He doesn't drain nexuses. Every source only ever mentions him draining the life force of the individuals. If he's not present on the planet, then the nexus is irrelevant. The nexus was created by his dark side experiments that he fueled through the draining of individuals anyway.
That scan's irrelevant because Palpatine is actually on Byss at that moment. Has nothing to do with him draining the planet's population off Byss.
Considering Sidious was dying, and draining the world was being done specifically to prevent him from dying (as shown by the scan I provided), I would disagree. He obviously chose that world because it was already strong in the Force, before many of the structures were even built, the planet was already amping Vader, so evidently it was a nexus before Palpatine began his work and stay.
Where does it say he was dying? He said he used it to prolong his life/delay the aging process, and other sources reveal that he also fueled his dark side experiments with them. This also has nothing to do with my point.
Palpatine's draining was underway by the time Vader arrived, meaning his experiments that would corrupt the planet were also underway. The planet was already being corrupted.
Actually, it implies a lot. The word "vampiric" unravels your entire point here. To be vampiric is to be like a vampire, and vampires REQUIRE blood to survive, constantly searching to feed to sate their literal blood thirst. The use of this term to describe Sidious' eating habits in regards t drain, implies the same. Constantly draining the world and looking to feed to sate his hunger.
Vampiric means feeding on blood, or in this case feeding on life force. Presumably Sidious is affected by hunger to some extent (it's difficult to argue otherwise since he actually does spend the whole time feeding) but really there's no comparison to Nihilus' identity subsumption.
Pity, Leland Chee DOES count it."Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction."
- Leland Chee
He cites the use of stats for the purposes of story groups and authors' referrals. He doesn't actually call them canon. Valid? Possibly. But as I said before, if you're going to use this argument then you'll be making a variety of concessions on Nihilus' planet-draining feats.
That does't make the feat any more impressive, because as pointed out by my friend, their willingness makes the feat easier regardless. So he dominates the population, feeds on the nexus to sustain himself, which in turns gives the strength to keep draining and maintain his hold over the populace. It's a loop, one aspect is dependent on another, hence part of why I feel this feat is so circumstantial.
What are you talking about? It's easy in that they're willing, but that willingness was created and perpetuated by Palpatine in the first place. Surely he deserves plaudits for that, especially given as neither feat required conscious effort on his part.
And the drain is used to delay his aging and fuel his dark side experiments, not empower himself in the Force.
Yet you view Plagueis' and Sidious' galactic unbalancing feat is attributable to them as an indicator of their power? Correct? That's a bit of a double standard, and I've explained numerous times, and in depth, why their unbalancing feat isn't relevant to their power available in combat.
I view it as a good showing of willpower, but relevant to a fight? Not quite. But it's worth mentioning because greater imbalances are achieved more easily later on, and they're worth mentioning in the context of power.
