Kefla vs Hit

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, but how does any of this equate to Kefla being more powerful than Jiren was when he fought Goku?

Jiren handled the Genki Dama with a f*cking eye-blink. He easily dodged UI Goku's initial salvo. He matched UI Goku in every conceivable way. Etc.

Conversely, Kefla was utterly outclassed by UI Goku, and therefore, was well below the aforementioned [suppressed] Jiren, imo.

He didn't easily dodge UI Goku's initial salvo. Hell, within the first few blows, Jiren's face was scuffed.

They stalemate for a while, but Goku then knees him in the stomach and knocks him to the ground with an off-the-cuff kamehameha.

Yes, Jiren did better against UI Goku than Kefla did, but Goku was explicitly more powerful the second time he used UI than the first time. This is why Piccolo speculates that Kefla surpassed the UI Goku that fought Jiren.

Essentially, 2nd UI Goku > FP Kefla > First UI Goku ~ Suppressed Jiren.

Regardless, there's at least enough controversy here that Hit doesn't stand a chance in hell against someone as powerful as FP Kefla.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He didn't easily dodge UI Goku's initial salvo. Hell, within the first few blows, Jiren's face was scuffed.

They stalemate for a while, but Goku then knees him in the stomach and knocks him to the ground with an off-the-cuff kamehameha.

Yes, Jiren did better against UI Goku than Kefla did, but Goku was explicitly more powerful the second time he used UI than the first time. This is why Piccolo speculates that Kefla surpassed the UI Goku that fought Jiren.

Meh, Piccolo says it "MIGHT even surpass [Goku's] earlier level." "Might" implies that even IF UI Goku(Mk. II) was more powerful than UI Goku(Mk. I), the difference was marginal, at best. History tells us that if the difference was significant, Piccolo would have said something like "far" more powerful or whathaveyou.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Essentially, 2nd UI Goku > FP Kefla > First UI Goku ~ Suppressed Jiren.

Lets be honest: ANY 'version' of UI Goku would've f*cking throttled her, easily.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regardless, there's at least enough controversy here that Hit doesn't stand a chance in hell against someone as powerful as FP Kefla.

Piccolo didn't say UI MK. II surpassed UI MK I. Piccolo said LSSJ2 Kefla surpassed UI MK. I. So yeah, Goku definitely improved quite a bit the 2nd time around. 🙂

Meh, Piccolo could have just as easily been referencing SSB Goku, if you want to go that route with it -- "earlier level" is vague AF in that context. Regardless, Piccolo's bit of dialogue there is rather confusing either way you slice it.

Goku was able to hone/sharpen/fine-tune UI in some areas, but certainly not in others... And we'll see him refine UI every time he accesses it(until he attains complete mastery, of course.)

That said, UI Goku(Mk. I) would still wipe his ass with LSSJ2 Kefla. It would honestly be a one-sided stomp.

It referring to SSB Goku makes absolutely no sense. The dialogue isn't confusing.

LSSJ Kefla already rivalled the power of the spirit bomb, which poops on the power of SSJB. Kefla then goes LSSJ2. The only power Goku ever previously attained that would make sense is the first time he used UI, especially given that Goku was in UI Mk II when Piccolo made the statement. Piccolo is essentially saying Kefla surpassed Son's earlier level in UI by going LSSJ2. It being SSJB absolutely makes no sense.

You might have a point with LSSJ2, which she only went to when Goku went UI, but before that it was basically implied that Blue form Goku was > Kefla aside from his depleted stamina.

Nah.

It's explicitly stated that regular SSJ Kefla ~ the Spirit Bomb that was >/>> SSJB KKx20 in terms of power. Clearly she was holding back against Goku.

If you go back and rewatch ep. 115, you will find that SSB Goku /w/ a standard KK(x2) was ~/> LSSJ Kefla(in fact, a single blow from Goku was capable of "really hurting" her)... And it was reiterated numerous times that Goku's stamina was almost entirely depleted during that fight, which means he wasn't operating anywhere near his peak. Despite this, he was still no less than equal to her.

*And there was absolutely NO reason to believe Kefla was holding back against Goku, btw -- quite the contrary, actually.

Suffice to say, using the Genki Dama as a measuring stick doesn't work here, otherwise the algorithm would look like this:

A grossly depleted SSB Goku /w/ KKx2 ~ LSSJ Kefla ~ ToP Genki Dama > a nearly full-power SSB Goku /w/ KKx20.

...And I shouldn't have to explain why that makes no sense whatsoever.

So from THAT standpoint, it is entirely logical to assume that Piccolo was referring to LSSJ2 Kefla having surpassed SSB Goku /w/ KK -- that was technically/literally Goku's "earlier level", after all. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
If you go back and rewatch ep. 115, you will find that SSB Goku /w/ a standard KK(x2) was ~/> LSSJ Kefla(in fact, a single blow from Goku was capable of "really hurting" her)... And it was reiterated numerous times that Goku's stamina was almost entirely depleted during that fight, which means he wasn't operating anywhere near his peak. Despite this, he was still no less than equal to her.

*And there was absolutely NO reason to believe Kefla was holding back against Goku, btw -- quite the contrary, actually.

Suffice to say, using the Genki Dama as a measuring stick doesn't work here, otherwise the algorithm would look like this:

A grossly depleted SSB Goku /w/ KKx2 ~ LSSJ Kefla ~ ToP Genki Dama > a nearly full-power SSB Goku /w/ KKx20.

...And I shouldn't have to explain why that makes no sense whatsoever.

So from THAT standpoint, it is entirely logical to assume that Piccolo was referring to LSSJ2 Kefla having surpassed SSB Goku /w/ KK -- that was technically/literally Goku's "earlier level", after all. /shrug

Hit can win if he goes for the killing blow right from the start and doesnt mess around otherwise he gets raped.

One other thing about the Genki Dama I kinda forgot earlier and realized now, it didn’t affect Jiren because he has no evil in his heart. He’s noble and pure, and kind of a pacifist/softy when he can help it (with all the people he could’ve ringed out but didn’t). Regardless of his power, it probably would have affected him if he was evil.

But yeah, another reason why the Genki Dama’s not reliable as a measuring stick when it comes to power alone.

Doesn't make sense. Frieza is evil and the only thing it did was knock the wind out of him. Grand Priest put a shield around him and Zeno because of this attack. Jiren withstanding it is a beastly of a showing. Sorry!!!

It didn't kill Frieza because there wasn't enough life left on Namek for the Genki Dama to absorb energy from, whereas it killed Kid Buu when there was enough energy... Context my friend, context.

My point was Jiren isn't evil, thus the spirit bomb wouldn't have effect on him no matter what he did.

Good point, actually. 👆

I just can't help but think that Toei might have overlooked that fact. Otherwise why even have Goku use the Genki Dama at all..? mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
Good point, actually. 👆

I just can't help but think that Toei might have overlooked that fact. Otherwise why even have Goku use the Genki Dama at all..? mmm

Exactly. I am sure he overlooked that and Genki Dama in that episode was meant as a brute force, a brute force that Jiren overcame because he had even greater power so that we can get a clue of how powerful he is.