Originally posted by SurturHe destroyed the mask and says let the past die. He has evolved past Vader and achieved more than Vader ever did. Vader also died a Jedi. He rejected Vader at the end. Try to be objective, cuck.
Kylo sure does seem like a Vader wannabe. Seems like he'd cream his pants if he was in Vaders presence. He'd also probably get all weak in the knee's.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He destroyed the mask and says let the past die. He has evolved past Vader and achieved more than Vader ever did. Vader also died a Jedi. He rejected Vader at the end. Try to be objective, cuck.
Achieved more than Vader? Lol. I think in his prime Vader would have slapped him down.
Originally posted by The Lost
I know Quan is Quan, much as I love the dude, by why do you think this? I'm curious.
IMO just a lot of the stuff Kylo does does not seem sincere. It is just the vibe I get whenever I see him in scenes.
I also think the guy ends up emulating Vader even in his rejection. Quan talked about letting the past die. This is *exactly* what Vader ended up wanting to happen with the jedi.
Hell, he even has a scar on his face, so did Vader.
Originally posted by Surtur
IMO just a lot of the stuff Kylo does does not seem sincere. It is just the vibe I get whenever I see him in scenes.
Sincere in what way? Could you elaborate?
I also think the guy ends up emulating Vader even in his rejection. Quan talked about letting the past die. This is *exactly* what Vader ended up wanting to happen with the jedi.
Vader rejected and abandoned his past with the Jedi to become Sith and partially control the new Empire. Kylo just wants utter domination, at the cost of all of those institutions. Here is the full quote when talking with Rey:
"The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi... let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you are meant to be."
Hell, he even has a scar on his face, so did Vader.
Yeah, but that seems a bit thin concerning Kylo's intent to want to be Vader, considering he did not choose to have a scar on his face.
Originally posted by The Lost
Sincere in what way? Could you elaborate?
It's just a vibe I get, I can't really point to anything to confirm it. It just comes off as a "going through the motions" type of thing for me.
Vader rejected and abandoned his past with the Jedi to become Sith and partially control the new Empire. Kylo just wants utter domination, at the cost of all of those institutions. Here is the full quote when talking with Rey:"[b]The Empire, your parents, the Resistance, the Sith, the Jedi... let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That's the only way to become what you are meant to be."
It's not exactly the same, but they both centered around a rejecting the past. And Vader did want utter domination too, he wanted to overthrow Palpatine, he just got his legs chopped off and it kinda hampered those plans. And we see later on he wanted to rule with Luke as his apprentice. So he did want to rule.
Yeah, but that seems a bit thin concerning Kylo's intent to want to be Vader, considering he did not choose to have a scar on his face. [/B]
True, I just saw it as another similarity.
Originally posted by Surtur
It's just a vibe I get, I can't really point to anything to confirm it. It just comes off as a "going through the motions" type of thing for me.
Oh. Gotcha.
It's not exactly the same, but they both centered around a rejecting the past. And Vader did want utter domination too, he wanted to overthrow Palpatine, he just got his legs chopped off and it kinda hampered those plans.
For Vader wanting to overthrow Palpatine, what is your argument for this? Vader was seemingly content where he was and his fall to the dark side seemed to have not much to do with garnering power and control, especially in the beginning (ROTS).
Plus, Kylo rejecting the past does not mean he is necessarily doing this to become Vader, particularly because the details and means to how Vader and Kylo abandon that past is so different.
True, I just saw it as another similarity.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by The LostOh. Gotcha.
For Vader wanting to overthrow Palpatine, what is your argument for this? Vader was seemingly content where he was and his fall to the dark side seemed to have not much to do with garnering power and control, especially in the beginning (ROTS).
Plus, Kylo rejecting the past does not mean he is necessarily doing this to become Vader, particularly because the details and means to how Vader and Kylo abandon that past is so different.
Fair enough. [/B]
Vader specifically tells Padme he is more powerful than Palpatine and can overthrow him. He wanted to rule the galaxy with her at his side. Then later on with Luke he more or less makes the same offer at the end of ESB. "We can rule the galaxy as father and son". That would require getting rid of Palpatine first.
Originally posted by Surtur
Vader specifically tells Padme he is more powerful than Palpatine and can overthrow him. He wanted to rule the galaxy with her at his side. Then later on with Luke he more or less makes the same offer at the end of ESB.
I don't think he fully believes this. He's still trying to gather what his place will be. He even stutters as he is saying this to her about Palpatine. Your point about father and son wanting to rule together? That I can understand. However, Vader wasn't actively pursuing this. He had an innate fear of Palpatine and understood his place.
Consider what you say about Vader wishing to rule with his son. If he wanted this exclusively or strove for it, he could have had it with Luke when Luke went to strike down Palpatine in ROTJ but Vader is the one who stops him. Vader lacks that ambition and Kylo has it. For TFA? Kylo wanting to be him? I think he wanted to be similar but always something more. TLJ is the definitive end of him wanting to be anything remotely similar to Vader, imo.
Originally posted by The Lost
I don't think he fully believes this. He's still trying to gather what his place will be. He even stutters as he is saying this to her about Palpatine. Your point about father and son wanting to rule together? That I can understand. However, Vader wasn't actively pursuing this. He had an innate fear of Palpatine and understood his place.Consider what you say about Vader wishing to rule with his son. If he wanted this exclusively or strove for it, he could have had it with Luke when Luke went to strike down Palpatine in ROTJ but Vader is the one who stops him. Vader lacks that ambition and Kylo has it. For TFA? Kylo wanting to be him? I think he wanted to be similar but always something more. TLJ is the definitive end of him wanting to be anything remotely similar to Vader, imo.
I think Vader was conflicted, but I also think the reason for his fall was not just worry over Padme. He was told he was the chosen one, super special. We see how kids in real life turn out when their parents do that. Now this guy was supposed to be space Jesus with super powers. He had a lust for power and wanted to rule, but was conflicted.
I think in ROTJ Vader stops Luke because he didn't think Luke would be turned. I think Vader purposely throws the fight at the end though. Remember how he kinda just goes to one knee for no reason?
But I do think he did want to rule and would have tried to do so if Luke had agreed. And if you look to the EU he was more or less plotting to overthrow him from the beginning.
But I do think Kylo wants to be what Vader could have been had he not gotten all chopped up.
Originally posted by Surtur
I think Vader was conflicted, but I also think the reason for his fall was not just worry over Padme. He was told he was the chosen one, super special. We see how kids in real life turn out when their parents do that. Now this guy was supposed to be space Jesus with super powers. He had a lust for power and wanted to rule, but was conflicted.
This is true but I think a part of him knew how just how drastically kneecapped that was when Kenobi nearly kills him. Remember, his reasoning for falling the dark side, aside from the obvious manipulation by Palpatine in the first place, was to save Padme. It wasn't the traditional trajectory of, "I'm tired of the Jedi and I want more power."
I think in ROTJ Vader stops Luke because he didn't think Luke would be turned. I think Vader purposely throws the fight at the end though. Remember how he kinda just goes to one knee for no reason?
I definitely don't agree with this. Luke was very clearly conflicted and, even if Vader didn't sense it in the force (I think he did), could probably detect it by Luke's facial expressions and clear torment. As for the Vader/Luke duel? I think there are some sources that state Vader did not throw the fight and Luke just straight up beat him. I think Vader going to one knee like that is simply a case of outdated/subpar choreography.
EVEN if Vader also didn't think Luke could be turned, why not allow Luke to kill Palpatine and then Vader takes him by himself?
But I do think he did want to rule and would have tried to do so if Luke had agreed. And if you look to the EU he was more or less plotting to overthrow him from the beginning.
In the EU? Perhaps. I'm not sure. In Canon? I do not share the sentiment, from what I understand (although I have not seen much of Rebels and whatnot so I'm not some authority).
Originally posted by SurturWithout a doubt. He achieved a higher status than Vader ever achieved. He also did so for selfish reasons unlike Vader who only turned out of love for his son. In turn he rejected the Sith way and became a Jedi until his death. If you want to change the discussion and go into the direction of who would beat who I would definitely point out that Vader has no clear victories over any powerful Jedi. Luke after finally achieving the wisdom and the power utterly trounces Vader. Hell, even a much weaker Luke managed to graze his shoulder in ESB. This is while avoiding the elephant in the room that Vader lost much of his potential after the Kenobi defeat in rots.
Achieved more than Vader? Lol. I think in his prime Vader would have slapped him down.
In conclusion Kylo is both more evil, pursued his own path for himself and what he perceives what's best for him ultimately, and ultimately rejects the past and evolved past Vader the moment he smashes the mask early on in the film.