Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Jinn's a specific, inconsistent issue where sources
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
associate his aging with a loss of speed, despite with what we know of Dooku and Sidious.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I imagine quotes exist stating Jinn moves faster than Obi-Wan, anyway.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm interested in the Malgus example, though. It may be because he prioritizes excess energy to strength, being a Sith Warrior. Care to elaborate?
Deceived
She forced words between gritted teeth. “You killed Master Zallow.”“And now I will kill you, too,” he said. “In the same place I killed him.” He leaned into his blade, pushed her back a step, and unleashed a Force-augmented kick at her ribs.
But she was the quicker, and a flip sent her over his head and fifty meters away, deeper into the mountain of ruins where her Master had died. She landed in a crouch atop one of the broken columns sticking out of the rubble.
Here the text also strongly hints at speed being her advantage, whereas his was strength:
Deceived
The moment she landed, Malgus was upon her, his blade slashing, stabbing, spinning. He tried to use his superior strength to force her off the stone, off balance, but she answered his strength with speed, sidestepping his blows, leaping over them, parrying, unleashing her own flurries. The hum of their weapons through the air, the sizzle of crossed blades, merged into a single song of speed and power.
Your argument that he would be slower because he prioritized strength isn't very convincing. She was simply quicker than him.
Nephthys
At the time Malgus wasn't actually more powerful than her tbh. At least not significantly.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Malgus' edge is strength and Leneer's edge is speed, then it seems clear they prioritize those abilities (assuming they are similar in power when the comparisons are made as Neph said).
Confirmation bias, bro. There's nothing in the text hinting at them prioritizing different abilities. What the text DOES hint is that she was faster but he was stronger (''she answered his strength with his speed'', not why that is the case.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The connection between power and speed is just as strong as power and strength, after all.
I'm drawing a logical conclusion based on what we know.
Factually, comparably powerful Force users will have comparably powerful amounts of Force energy flowing into them. Therefore, in the case of Malgus and Leener, we can conclude Malgus puts more energy into augmenting strength whereas Leener augmenting speed. The text doesn't need to state anything besides stating they are comparably powerful with each having an edge in different areas. The conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
I'm asking for an example where we have something that directly contradicts (i.e. burden of proof is on you) this line of thinking - and hopefully multiple examples so it's not just one inconsistency. In this instance, I can reasonably insert this fight into my perception of how augmentation works and it fits perfectly fine, hence my point.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, but he should instantly be able to prioritize to speed if need-be.That's how Force Speed (shown in TPM) presumably works. A Jedi devotes all power to speed for a short burst.
Using Force Speed in battle is likely more harmful than helpful, but devoting enough energy to, say, dodge Maul is within his capabilities.
Although it should be noted Revan has employed Force Speed in combat, so Vitiate might too as well, lol.
lmao so then by that logic why do combatants bother to train specific Force techniques and close quarters combat if it's 100% a function of your overall reserves?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
lmao so then by that logic why do combatants bother to train specific Force techniques and close quarters combat if it's 100% a function of your overall reserves?
The other half is, obviously, actual skill, hence the need for training and improvement.
Valkorion obviously isn't as proficient as Maul with a lightsaber, but he is stronger and faster - strong and fast enough to completely circumvent Maul's skill advantage, even in CQC, in my books.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force-backed enhancements (precognition, speed, strength, etc.) are only half (not exactly - depends on case to case) of the equation.
And you're still assuming that Force augmentation is purely a function of overall Force reserves. Never mind how that explains Raskta Lsu, or Luke matching Vader as a duelist (and in Force augmentation given their deadlocking) but being vastly inferior in telekinesis per his own admission in RotJ, or why Force users bother to train for specific Force abilities at all.
Valkorion obviously isn't as proficient as Maul with a lightsaber, but he is stronger and faster - strong and fast enough to completely circumvent Maul's skill advantage, even in CQC, in my books.
From what we see of him, novel Vitiate's in-practice combat awareness is atrocious, with him getting tagged on multiple occasions by inferior Force users (Revan, Meetra) and almost getting incinerated by T3, despite having literally the best possible tactical starting position for his abilities (a long walkway).
Originally posted by The Ellimist
And you're still assuming that Force augmentation is purely a function of overall Force reserves.
Never mind how that explains Raskta Lsu,
Lsu devotes all her energy to speed and dueling-relevant aspects, thereby having no energy left to, say, put up barriers.
or Luke matching Vader as a duelist but being vastly inferior in telekinesis per his own admission in RotJ,
I'd like to refrain from commenting on this until our debate, but I disagree.
or why Force users bother to train for specific Force abilities at all.
Care to provide further clarification?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Factually, comparably powerful Force users will have comparably powerful amounts of Force energy flowing into them.Therefore, in the case of Malgus and Leener, we can conclude Malgus puts more energy into augmenting strength whereas Leener augmenting speed.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The text doesn't need to state anything besides stating they are comparably powerful with each having an edge in different areas. The conclusion is pretty straight-forward.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus is pretty obviously a Djem So/Shien practitioner while Leneer is most likely an Ataru one. Prioritisation of certain skills is obviously a factor in lightsaber combat based upon your combat style.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
From what we see of him, novel Vitiate's in-practice combat awareness is atrocious, with him getting tagged on multiple occasions by inferior Force users (Revan, Meetra) and almost getting incinerated by T3, despite having literally the best possible tactical starting position for his abilities (a long walkway).
And Maul has better combat awareness? He's flubbed almost every fight he's had. Someone post the dog gif.
Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
No, because, again, you haven't proved that a connection between a persons amount of Force energy within and the ''level'' of that persons speed exists. Your entire premise that you are basing your argument is not proven.
Let's say person M has 5 midichlorians and person V has 10 midichlorians (that are combat applicable). Let's also say, per midichlorian, they get 5 pts of Force energy.
So, we have person M with 25 pts of Force energy and person V with 50 pts of Force energy.
Person V, therefore, has a vastly greater amount of energy to devote to speed than person M.
Thus, person V (hint: Valkorion) is faster than person M (hint: Maul).
Of course, Maul can devote all his pts of Force energy to speed (ex. Force Speed), but so could Valkorion - and to a greater extent.
More to the point, you might as well say that everything a Force adept can do is directly based on their overall power, because you have also not pointed out a difference between speed and any other power, such as telekinesis, or Force drain, or whatever else.
Something like a Force push should follow under the same rules. More arcane techniques obviously require mastery.
The text doesn't owe their different edges to them focusing more power in that area. That's something you're making up to suit your agenda. It is completely unsupported in the text.
I recognize that the text doesn't openly state what I'm saying, but my point is I'm asking for examples that prove my stance (which, as far as I can tell, is factually and logically consistent with how the Force should work) false, yet this specific case can easily fit within those rules and still be true.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It is, but like I also noted, Force users can specifically devote amounts of energy to specific aspects of their body.
Augmentation is a Force technique, and Force techniques need to be learned and practiced, so it's logical to conclude that augmentation is something one needs to hone as well. The formula most plausibly goes:
Augmentation skill = F(overall power, domain specific augmentation ability, how much energy you are putting into it)
Different Force users are can therefore obviously be better at different things even if they had the same overall power.
retardedornah?Lsu devotes all her energy to speed and dueling-relevant aspects, thereby having no energy left to, say, put up barriers.
No...? If it were a matter of choice rather than deficiency then she'd just divert her energy to her barriers when her presumably focused-on precog told her she was going to get attacked. Indeed, people usually direct their energies to put up active barriers anyway, particularly people who may be bad at multitasking in combat like Vitiate who needed to release Revan to defend himself against T3.
I'd like to refrain from commenting on this until our debate, but I disagree.Care to provide further clarification?
See above.
Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
Since when did lightsaber form have anything to do with speed? Anakin uses Djem So, yet he is almost certainly faster (by quite a bit) than Qui-Gon, who uses Ataru. Plagueis disliked lightsaber combat altogether, yet was still incredibly fast. Prove that Malgus was slower than Aryn because he somehow prioritized strength over speed, and not because she was simply faster than him.
Lol, nobody said Djem so users can't be fast too but its less of a priority than a form like Ataru which specialises on fast, acrobatic attacks. Perhaps a better example would be the NJO's strong-medium-fast style forms though.
Malgus is a Sith Juggernaut, descriptions of which indicate focus on sheer strength and durability as their priority for combat. That's why he's running around in heavy armour instead of robes.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Augmentation is a Force technique, and Force techniques need to be learned and practiced, so it's logical to conclude that augmentation is something one needs to hone as well. The formula most plausibly goes:Augmentation skill = F(overall power, domain specific augmentation ability, how much energy you are putting into it)
Different Force users are can therefore obviously be better at different things even if they had the same overall power.
ILS and you constantly peddle the idea that Force augmentation is a skill that demands life-long mastery. I fully disagree. If that were the case, untrained yet powerful beings shouldn't be capable of performing strength and speed feats beyond that seen by trained individuals. For example - and I believe ILS even showed it to me - is Maul perceiving Anakin as a blur in TPM.
EDIT: It's possible that the technique is a learned-once-and-done thing, but the idea of life-long mastery just doesn't follow.
No...? If it were a matter of choice rather than deficiency then she'd just divert her energy to her barriers when her presumably focused-on precog told her she was going to get attacked.
Well, for starters, Lsu is an odd example compared to how it normally works (similiar to how the Darth Bane novels also introduce the idea of an instinctual Greater Force barrier that no other source mentions). Lsu's lifelong devotion to technical mastery reached a degree where she explicitly never bothered to learn other Force techniques like a Greater Force barrier, likely hence why she was unable to initiate one with great success. Note that, in this thread, I never argued all Force techniques are directly linked to combat-applicable power, but basic telekinesis and Force augmentation should be since augmentation is just pouring your Force energy into specific body parts to increase its effectiveness.