Where do you rank these characters in terms of combat speed?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'll reexplain my stance (but also refer to the picture above for reference):

Let's say person M has 5 midichlorians and person V has 10 midichlorians (that are combat applicable). Let's also say, per midichlorian, they get 5 pts of Force energy.

So, we have person M with 25 pts of Force energy and person V with 50 pts of Force energy.

Person V, therefore, has vastly greater amount of energy to devote to speed than person M.

Thus, person V (hint: Valkorion) is faster than person M (hint: Maul).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It depends on the power. Something like a Force push should follow under the same roles. More arcane techniques obviously require mastery.

I get that you're trying to justify why Valkorion doesn't get shitstompblitzed by someone like Maul, but a much simpler and more logically fair argument, and to even follow your train of thought, would be that he is not faster than Maul simply because he is more powerful than him, but because it would make no sense that he, on the basis of being one of the most powerful characters in the mythos, would not have devoted time to master a very basic Force technique (speed) to a very high level. To support this point, if Valkorion was this slow, then he would simply have gotten blitzed long before. And so on.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I recognize that the text doesn't openly state what I'm saying, but my point is I'm asking for examples that prove my stance fleshed out above to me true and this specific case can easily fit within those rules and still be true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, nobody said Djem so users can't be fast too but its less of a priority than a form like Ataru which specialises on fast, acrobatic attacks. Perhaps a better example would be the NJO's strong-medium-fast style forms though.

Malgus is a Sith Juggernaut, descriptions of which indicate focus on sheer strength and durability as their priority for combat. That's why he's running around in heavy armour instead of robes.

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
So TPM Anakin is faster than TPM Maul, because, according to your own made-up system, he has more Force energy? Midi-chlorian count has nothing to do with how much energy one person can devote to something. And again, I ask you to explain, with logic and evidence, the difference between speed and any other power, like Force drain, telekinesis, and so on, because this:

Presumably, as a Force user matures, more midichlorians because accessible (hence why I said "combat applicable).

This line-of-reasoning explains why Anakin isn't the Father-tier in power when we meet him in TPM.

That a Force push is connected to Force power but Force drain isn't is an entirely baseless opinion.

You don't need to be trained to use Force push. Force drain is a technique that demands teaching and mastery to utilize.

I get that you're trying to justify why Valkorion doesn't get shitstompblitzed by someone like Maul, but a much simpler and more logically fair argument, and to even follow your train of thought, would be that he is not faster than Maul simply because he is more powerful than him, but because it would make no sense that he, on the basis of being one of the most powerful characters in the mythos, would not have devoted time to master a very basic Force technique (speed) to a very high level. To support this point, if Valkorion was this slow, then he would simply have gotten blitzed long before. And so on.

I've opposed the idea that Force augmentation is skill-based since StarWarsForums where you used comic speed blurs to argue character X is faster than character Y. This has nothing to do with Valkorion.

It might be beneficial for me to write a full post explaining how I view it (with quotes from sources and whatnot) rather than gradually revealing relevant points when addressed that might appear out-of-nowhere to people who are still stuck in the skill = power mindset of the earlier 2010s.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Presumably, as a Force user matures, more midichlorians because accessible (hence why I said "combat applicable).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This line-of-reasoning explains why Anakin isn't the Father-tier in power when we meet him in TPM.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You don't need to be trained to use Force push. Force drain is a technique that demands teaching and mastery to utilize.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I've opposed the idea that Force augmentation is skill-based since StarWarsForums where you used comic speed blurs to argue character X is faster than character Y. This has nothing to do with Valkorion.

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
You're arguing that Aryn is faster than Malgus on the basis that her style of fighting prioritizes speed more than his style of fighting does. Then again I say, the exact same parallel can be drawn between Anakin and Qui-Gon, yet Anakin is much faster.

Because Anakin is much more powerful than Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon was slowed with age.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
ILS and you constantly peddle the idea that Force augmentation is a skill that demands life-long mastery. I fully disagree. If that were the case, untrained yet powerful beings shouldn't be capable of performing strength and speed feats beyond that seen by trained individuals. For example - and I believe ILS even showed it to me - is Maul perceiving Anakin as a blur in TPM.

This is actually a case for Maul, because it lends credence to the notion that augmentation is more closely correlated to raw potential than other Force abilities are, and Maul's potential apparently rivals Palpatine's, which is clearly above Vitiate's by your own rankings.

Regardless, just because augmentation is easier to pick up on a superficial level doesn't mean it's easy to master, e.g. when training Bane Kas'im spent a large amount of time trying to explain to him how to harness the dark side for dueling properly - it wasn't merely technical skill and "grow generally in power".

Well, for starters, Lsu is an odd example compared to how it normally works (similiar to how the Darth Bane novels also introduce the idea of an instinctual Greater Force barrier that no other source mentions). Lsu's lifelong devotion to technical mastery reached a degree where she explicitly never bothered to learn other Force techniques like a Greater Force barrier, likely hence why she was unable to initiate one with great success. Note that, in this thread, I never argued all Force techniques are directly linked to combat-applicable power, but basic telekinesis and Force augmentation should be since augmentation is just pouring your Force energy into specific body parts to increase its effectiveness.

I fail to see how Vitiate can't be the polar opposite of Lsu.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Anakin is much more powerful than Qui-Gon and Qui-Gon was slowed with age.

As I said, I have midterms this week and it wasn't really my intention to spark a multi-page debate against multiple debaters. I'll respond after studying (depending on the time), but if not tomorrow (given I remember - if not, reminder me, but regardless this topic will likely work its way into the Revan vs Vader debate anyway).

lol @ thinking raskta is more powerful than bane

not what i argued but thanks

If we can infer speed levels from power levels, why can't we just do the reverse and infer power levels based on speed levels.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
If we can infer speed levels from power levels, why can't we just do the reverse and infer power levels based on speed levels.

The logic inherently contradicts itself. Valkorion, based on feats and accolades, is more powerful than Kit Fisto, and therefore faster than him. But Kit Fisto, based on feats and accolades is faster than Valkorion, and therefore more powerful than him... what?

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
This was brought up elsewhere, and not refuted.

The logic inherently contradicts itself. Valkorion, based on feats and accolades, is more powerful than Kit Fisto, and therefore faster than him. But Kit Fisto, based on feats and accolades is faster than Valkorion, and therefore more powerful than him... what?

I'd love to see Ant's answer for why superior speed feats aren't examples of superior power.

Just gonna put a friendly reminder that Kenobi has deflected blaster fire from ten thousand droids...

Originally posted by ILS
👆

I'd love to see Ant's answer for why superior speed feats aren't examples of superior power.

Probably because it's one of the few ways he can't powerscale Revan in any meaningful way.

We see Obi-Wan in Lone Wolf run upwards of 600 km/hr. and it's implied that he's running at supersonic speeds, and we've seen Mace run seemingly similarly quickly on the battle of Dantooine. And Sarasu deflected a blaster bolt in the span of a nano-second. We've not seen speed feats of these kinds from users like Sidious, Vitiate, Krayt, Exar Kun, and so on. So, speed doesn't really seem to have as much to do with power as it does with those who can hone their skills.