Darth Krayt vs. Darth Tyranus (Sabers)

Started by cs_zoltan3 pages
Originally posted by Unbowed
I don't think so. Hett is being shortchanged here because he lost to Obi-Wan on Tatooine, but Obi-Wan was in full protect Luke/not ****ing around mode.

lul

FYI this is the part when Kenobi went full protect Luke/not ****ing around mode:

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's .

Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Definitely Maul+ showing 👆

But as the LeGenD of Krayt I don't expect you to concede that.

Originally posted by Unbowed
What circumstances are those?

Mostly environmental advantages, and the implication that Obi-Wan's skills might have been slightly tarnished from disuse even if his reflexes haven't been dulled:

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today.

Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw.

Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

-- The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

It also seems that he held back till the end.

Originally posted by ILS
[B]A'Sharad did reasonably well against Obi-Wan while he was infinitely pre-prime.

Obi wan isn't really known for eliminating people quickly. The fight may not have been a total wreckage, but Hett probably lasted no longer than that magnagaurd the former fought aboard the Invisible Hand. Internal notes from the Life and Legend of Kenobi suggest that when he decided to get serious, the fight ended swiftly. We then have to mitigate Krayt's favourable environment... and then there's the added moral restrictions Obi Wan places on himself - he's wasn't trying to kill Hett, whittling Kenobi's options to non-fatal strikes - such a severing an arm or a hand. Hett however, was trying to kill Ben.

Most prominently, Reborn Krayt defeated Cade Skywalker pretty damn easily by tapping him on the chest with dark transfer. Krayt being a Jar'kai wielder could have easily swapped his palm out for the lightsaber in his hand.

Thematically speaking, this theory is opening up a can of worms. I now have to assume that anytime a melee strike occurs that it's a mark of grater skill had there only been a saber in the hand delivering it. Mechanically speaking, you have to account for a lightsaber's larger arc of motion. You also have to consider how one postures themselves and reacts to danger when confronted with a glowing stick of death compared to a bare hand. Given that, I'm not willing to imagine Krayt with another saber in said scenario, because i'd have to assume that Cade would react differently.

Cade himself has got a laundry list of impressive lightsaber feats, so I'm not sure Dooku would as easily defeat him.

He's still several generations diluted from Anakin, with less training and more time dulling his own powers with drugs.

I would also say Krayt is more powerful than Dooku, which typically factors into your skill as a duelist.

I'd say there about the same in power (tier 8). Dooku with more skill and more specialised form for duelling. As far as force feats go, Krayt hasn't shown me anything more impressive than Maul, someone on Dooku's level.

The home advantage point is valid but the rest aren't. The difference in age is irrelevant since Obi-Wan is still pretty young himself, and his form relies on defense and using his energy conservatively. And as far as being rusty, the same would be true for Hett. While he probably engaged in tribal warfare with other Tuskens, that's a far cry from lightsaber dueling.

Anyway, I never argued that Hett was as strong as Obi-Wan. Just that whenever Obi-Wan is protecting Luke he's automatically at peak performance, punching above his usual weight. On the other hand Hett lost his way, just like Maul, and was reduced to leading a Tusken Crip gang. If they dueled under normal circumstances Obi-Wan would have found it much harder.

And also note that Obi-Wan beat Hett by offensively using the Force, not pure lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by Shadilaay
[B]Obi wan isn't really known for eliminating people quickly. The fight may not have been a total wreckage, but Hett probably lasted no longer than that magnagaurd the former fought aboard the Invisible Hand. Internal notes from the Life and Legend of Kenobi suggest that when he decided to get serious, the fight ended swiftly. We then have to mitigate Krayt's favourable environment... and then there's the added moral restrictions Obi Wan places on himself - he's wasn't trying to kill Hett, whittling Kenobi's options to non-fatal strikes - such a severing an arm or a hand. Hett however, was trying to kill Ben.
Magnaguards are a dubious measuring stick, given that Fisto and Maul have both wrecked them very quickly, as has TCW Anakin. Hett at least caused Obi-Wan serious issues and landed a hit on him.

Obi-Wan places such moral restrictions on himself in all of his fights, unless you can post a quote showing otherwise (which I'm on board with).

And again, the point of this is A'Sharad went from this rather mediocre state to having favourable comparisons to Caedus and Luke, "perfecting his combat technique" over a century, killing thousands of opponents, and having his powers "multiply" by his peak.

Thematically speaking, this theory is opening up a can of worms. I now have to assume that anytime a melee strike occurs that it's a mark of grater skill
Do you consider a fight won when a lightsaber goes through the opponent?

had there only been a saber in the hand delivering it. Mechanically speaking, you have to account for a lightsaber's larger arc of motion. You also have to consider how one postures themselves and reacts to danger when confronted with a glowing stick of death compared to a bare hand.
Krayt was duel wielding in this scenario, there's no reason assume he couldn't have swapped out his hand for a straight puncture wound or even a wider slash that cuts through everything in it's path. In any case, I'm not interested in entering a debate of semantics and mechanics when it's fairly clear that Krayt is superior to Cade in an obvious way. As a benchmark, he had a far harder time disposing of Cade when they first fought, before they both had a power increase, so clearly Krayt's was more substantial.

He's still several generations diluted from Anakin, with less training and more time dulling his own powers with drugs.
He dulled his powers with drugs at the beginning of the series, but it's noted that his powers had increased remarkably as he got more experience under his belt. Talon notices a large difference by the end of the book.

Obi-Wan didn't defeat Anakin in two comic pages, either, nor did he defeat an Anakin in his right frame of mind.

I'd say there about the same in power (tier 8). Dooku with more skill and more specialised form for duelling. As far as force feats go, Krayt hasn't shown me anything more impressive than Maul, someone on Dooku's level.
Well, I'm not making any promises of finishing this debate, as I have a few other things I want to do. Let me know what you think of my points.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2nd tier? IIRC, A'Sharad only competed with Obi-Wan under a slew of beneficial circumstances.

Which is exactly what I'd expect from the likes of Ventress and especially from Oppress who got fodderized by Kenobi in a matter of seconds with backup.

Not sure why He needs to be a match for Kenobi to be on the level of Kenobi's inferiors.

Though it's fairly generous to put the likes of Oppress and legends Vos on the same tier as Kenobi or Maul.

Originally posted by ILS
Talon notices a large difference by the end of the book.

You mean this in Legacy War#5?

Also, Hett wasn't anywhere close to wrecked with the lightsaber. Kenobi only won by making use of telekenesis.

Going with Dooku, in a good fight. His lightsaber abilities are more substantiated, thanks to his many accolades and feats, and he holds up pretty well in Force power too.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean this in Legacy War#5?

I believe so.

Originally posted by ILS
I believe so.

Well Talon fought Cade in Legacy War#3, so it's unlikely she refered to any earlier incarnation of Cade.

Just to help your argument along.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was that not a quick skirmish where Talon knocked Cade over and fled? Or was it a serious battle?

It wasn't any shorter than their fight in #5, I don't see how she couldn't have sensed his power.

All the better, either way. 👆

Talon got quite the beatdown from Cade at the end. He beat her black and blue all the way to Krayt's throne room, depositing her at his feet.

Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
cs_zoltan
SunRazer
Shadilay (not counting)

Krayt:
ILS
Unbowed
Azronger
Rockydonovang
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong)

I still never said Dooku wins.

Oh; I forgot Sirion_Of_Doom in the list of Dooku supporters.

Obi-Wan places such moral restrictions on himself in all of his fights, unless you can post a quote showing otherwise (which I'm on board with)

I have to assume these moral restrictions don't include setting Grievous' organs on fire - with a blaster no less. And considering the very violent manner in which he was dispatched, I doubt Kenobi has any reservations with piercing cyborg lungs, heart or performing a decapitation. Just a few options that probably aren't on the table against a former Jedi comrade. And one who hasn't committed any particular crime.

There's a very specific reason why I italised the word "people", when referring to the types of adversary Kenobi will restrain himself against. The difficulties he has fighting Hett - creating a specific opening so he can disarm him - aren't present against robot. Which may go to explain why hett lasted as long as he did. Kenobi also has no reservations against Maul, possibly none against Savage either.

Hett at least caused Obi-Wan serious issues and landed a hit on him.

Yes, but unlike the Magnagurd, Hett had an environmental advantage, as well as the leisure of fighting someone who's trying to spare his life, while not reciprocating the same moralistic goodwill.

Magnaguards are a dubious measuring stick, given that Fisto and Maul have both wrecked them very quickly as has TCW Anakin.

There may be a few in-universe reasons why this is, let's look at them before hand-waving Maganagaurds entirely. The first is that their programming doesn't respond well to unpredictability, and that Fisto and Maul wield styles characterised by that exact trait. The second reason is the possible improvement of Magnagaurds over time. Or that the ones guarding Grievous aboard the Invisible Hand are simply more "elite" than the one's facing Anakin in TCW. For one, they don't seem to get up after loosing their heads. From an out of universe prospective, if the argument is that Kenobi is jobbing against Grevious' bodyguards for plot reasons, he can certainly do the same facing Hett. Especially since we have an internal account of the battle, where it's clear that when Ben gets serious, the fight is over instantly.

And again, the point of this is A'Sharad went from this rather mediocre state to perfecting his combat technique" over a century, killing thousands of opponents, and having his powers "multiply" by his peak.

That's one [part of the point. The other part of the point is establishing how good Hett is before the power ups. Presuming he was already on Kenobi's level - but only a little bit worse - then the endeavours during his journey to becoming Darth Krayt could indeed put him ahead of Dooku... and by fair degree. However, I think that he's a Tier Seven against Kenobi. The experiences Krayt had after the fact may well have taken him into the tier-eight rubicon, but it still doesn't put him ahead of Tyranus. If beating a centuries worth of opponents - whom may not even be particularly great - was enough to put him ahead of Dooku, then I had better see you supporting Lord Scourge against The Count too. But for some reason I don't see that happening.

Having favourable comparions with Caedus and Luke

Well I have mentioned numerous times that I'm not familiar with Apocalypse. My basis for Krayt comes entirely from Legacy. So feel free to enlighten me.

Krayt was duel wielding in this scenario,

.... No he wasn't.

In any case, I'm not interested in entering a debate of semantics and mechanics when it's fairly clear that Krayt is superior to Cade in an obvious way.

We he? When i looked back at the panels of the fight, I see Cade still standing after Krayt attempt to dominate him conventionally - through TK and lightning. He was taken down, yes, but probably because Krayt's used Force power Cade never expected to be on the receiving end of.

He dulled his powers with drugs at the beginning of the series, but it's noted that his powers had increased remarkably as he got more experience under his belt. Talon notices a large difference by the end of the book.

And he probably spent the previous years of his life on drugs and not doing much to improve his skills. The point is that he's a several generations diluted Skywalker, with much less training than Anakin. I don't give him special commendations for beating what, Taalon and Nhil? Who are ultimately just two skilled acolytes from a relatively unknown faction of sith.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:
cs_zoltan

Krayt:
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong)

Why did you assume this again?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
cs_zoltan
SunRazer
Shadilay (not counting)

Krayt:
ILS
Unbowed
Azronger
Rockydonovang
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong)


I never took a side