Originally posted by ShadilaayThese are fair points. So let's dispense with using Hett as a point of comparison, as you rightly point out later, this means of scaling alone may only raise Krayt to Kenobi's level by his prime, not beyond Dooku.
I have to assume these moral restrictions don't include setting Grievous' organs on fire - with a blaster no less. And considering the very violent manner in which he was dispatched, I doubt Kenobi has any reservations with piercing cyborg lungs, heart or performing a decapitation. Just a few options that probably aren't on the table against a former Jedi comrade. And one who hasn't committed any particular crime.There's a very specific reason why I italised the word "people", when referring to the types of adversary Kenobi will restrain himself against. The difficulties he has fighting Hett - creating a specific opening so he can disarm him - aren't present against robot. Which may go to explain why hett lasted as long as he did. Kenobi also has no reservations against Maul, possibly none against Savage either.
Yes, but unlike the Magnagurd, Hett had an environmental advantage, as well as the leisure of fighting someone who's trying to spare his life, while not reciprocating the same moralistic goodwill.
That's one [part of the point. The other part of the point is establishing how good Hett is before the power ups. Presuming he was already on Kenobi's level - but only a little bit worse - then the endeavours during his journey to becoming Darth Krayt could indeed put him ahead of Dooku... and by fair degree. However, I think that he's a Tier Seven against Kenobi. The experiences Krayt had after the fact may well have taken him into the tier-eight rubicon, but it still doesn't put him ahead of Tyranus. If beating a centuries worth of opponents - whom may not even be particularly great - was enough to put him ahead of Dooku, then I had better see you supporting Lord Scourge against The Count too. But for some reason I don't see that happening.My point with mentioning Krayt's large kill count was not to show a greater feat than those belonging to Dooku but to emphasise his growth.
Well I have mentioned numerous times that I'm not familiar with Apocalypse. My basis for Krayt comes entirely from Legacy. So feel free to enlighten me.Believe it or not, I'm not going to mention the Throne of Balance or Krayt's Force drain (although perhaps someone else can explain why the Throne of Balance is meaningful to mention).
The main thing that stood out to me was as follows: when Luke and Krayt went to Beyond Shadows to fight Abeloth, they fought as their pure Force essence. They both sustained immense damage from the fight, and it was stated they received comparable injuries. Yet, there was a marked difference in how they recovered from those injuries: Luke was willing to give up on living, and had to be given a pep talk by Mara Jade's ghost to fight to live... meanwhile, Krayt had already picked himself up off the floor and was leaving.
Now, obviously, Sith can feed on pain to an extent whereas Jedi suffer the full effects with no benefit. So we can't use this to say that Krayt is a real peer of Luke's. However, this is Grandmaster Luke we're talking about, one who is several orders of magnitude more powerful, with greater access to his huge Force reserves, the Dark Empire Luke among his other iterations (who have moved Dovin Bassal's and killed armies of Vong thousands strong).
At some level, you need to acknowledge that getting up from injuries which put Luke out of commission is extremely impressive, even if Krayt benefits from being a Sith.
Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now.--ApocalypseAnd she did.
In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help-and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could.
Luke attacked anyway, driving an elbow strike into the side of her head. As before, there was no crunching, no physical sense of impact, only Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both. Luke sensed his elbow come free as it pushed out the other side of Abeloth's head. Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the strangerя...яeach clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence.
The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.
[...]
The Lake of Apparitions was neither warm nor cold, still nor roiling. It simply was, beyond time and sensation, beyond fear or desire or duty. It embodied surrender and attainment, death and immortality, and Luke had never felt more ready to slip below its dark surface and join his beloved Mara, to wrap himself in her liquid embrace and let the Depths of Eternity wash away the anguish of his wounds, the ache of his lonely despair.But something would not let him sink.
[...]
"Not yet, Skywalker."The voice was warm and familiar, and it came from beside Luke. He turned to find Mara's face breaking the surface of the water. Then he saw a hand gripping the back of his biceps and realized that she was floating beneath him, preventing him from sinking.
"Mara, it's okay," Luke said. "I'm ready. I want to be with you."
"Too bad." He felt his upper body rising as she tried to push him upward. "I don't want to be with you-not here, not yet."
"What?" Luke asked, feeling more confused than resentful. "Mara, I'm wounded... badly. Abeloth took something out of me."
"She wounded him, too." Mara's other hand rose out of the water and pointed past Luke's head, toward the tattooed Sith who had helped Luke kill Abeloth. The stranger was on his feet, limping toward the far shore with both hands clutched to his chest. "If he can do it, so can you."
Luke forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache, but he refused to collapse back into the water. He had no idea of the Sith's true identity, but it did not seem wise to let him return to the physical galaxy alone.
"That's ridiculous. Their injuries may be different." This voice came from Luke's other side, sinister and cajoling...яand also familiar. "Besides, Sith are stronger. They have the dark side."
"Who is he?" Luke asked, turning to find Jacen looking up from the water on his other side. "You know, don't you?"
"I told you," Jacen replied. "He's the one I saw sitting on the Throne of Balance."
"The dark man of your vision?" Luke asked. This was the best opportunity he would ever have to learn for certain why Jacen had turned to the dark side, and he was determined to take advantage of it. "The one you sacrificed yourself to stop?"
"I saw only one," Jacen replied. "And you're letting him win."
Luke shook his head. "He can't win, Jacen. Whatever damage you caused to the Force, you accomplished that much. The Sith will never rule the galaxy... not now."
The tattooed man stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering. Instead of attacking, the Sith just stood staring at them, one eye shining yellow and the other an empty socket, his right arm a useless ghost of a limb.
Of course, it's noted that Abeloth "took something out of them" - if someone can firm whether this was a permanent weakening of Luke and Krayt that would be nice.
Krayt is by far at his weakest point when he has his Vong parasites, which diminished his connection to the Force, tore his body apart from the inside and drained his stamina rapidly.
This is Krayt once he comes back from the brink of death and is free of said parasites:
Darth Krayt, leader of the One Sith, has been reborn from his near death at the hands of Darth Wyyrlok; he has sent ripples through the Force so that all Sith know he is alive and well […] What no one knows is that Darth Krayt is returning better than before […]We can quantify the difference by comparing how close Krayt was to Cade in their first fight (very, with the parasites, but Krayt was better), versus how close they were in the 2nd fight, with both having powered up since (not as close).—Star Wars: Legacy: War, PART ONE
“I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The dark side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me!”
—Darth Krayt
“You fled our last fight—and I am so much more now than I was then.”
—Darth Krayt to Cade Skywalker
For your own research you should take a look at all of these RTs, as you'll be able to see what the mooks of the Legacy era can do and then imagine how far above Krayt is from them.
One Sith:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/emperor-krayt-respect-thread-1684455/
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-wyyrlok-iii-respect-thread-1675001/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-nihl-respect-thread-1667309/#5
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-talon-respect-thread-1673862/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/thevivas/blog/darth-wredd-respect-thread/105631/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-krayt-s-sith-troopers-overview-1673585/
Jedi/Imperial Knights:
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/cade-skywalker-respect-thread/97726/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/antares-draco-respect-thread/104728/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/shado-vao-respect-thread-1673571/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/thevivas/blog/wolf-sazen-respect-thread/125081/
But the basic hierarchy is:
Reborn Krayt > Prime Cade ~ Infected Krayt > pre-prime Cade >> Nihl > Talon > Antares Draco/Shado Vao/Wolf/Stryfe etc etc >>> a dozen Sith at a time / or groups of Sith Troopers (who make regular Sith look puny) at a time.
They also have the run of the mill accolades regarding being the "best of their time" or in Talon and Nihl's case, being in the top 3/4 spots out of Krayt's entire order (and the position of Hand is merit-based and highly competitive).
As you seem to appreciate factors such as whether or not the Orders of the time are militaristic or not, Krayt's Order is extremely combat-oriented and the likes of Nihl are lightsaber-masters with decades of war experience under their belt, and Talon is a clear prodigy as she has caught up to Nihl after a short few years as a Hand.
They scale above other duelists who in turn can take on groups of extremely powerful Sith Troopers, who like I mentioned are the cream of the crop; Krayt chooses them based on their latent potential from birth and moulds them into the perfect weapons, and they have been seen decimating the ranks of Jedi and ragdolling other Sith. Shado Vao in particular held off many waves of these Sith while Cade dragged Talon up to Krayt's throne room, fought him, heard his monologue and then stabbed him (at which point the Troopers all went insane).
Yet, Cade has a record of stomping Talon and beat Nihl thoroughly well before his prime. Cade was even contending with Nihl at the start of the series, before he was re-trained by both the Jedi and Sith and got 50 issues worth of comics of experience under his belt.
.... No he wasn't.Good point, I missed this, just assumed Krayt was dual-wielding like usual. Still, whether Cade was expecting it or not is kind of irrelevant as Dooku won't be either, and neither would willingly let Krayt touch their chest. Him usually fighting with two swords leads me to believe there isn't a world of difference between him using Dark Transfer and a second lightsaber, because as we see from the scans, he was parrying Cade with one hand anyway.We he? When i looked back at the panels of the fight, I see Cade still standing after Krayt attempt to dominate him conventionally - through TK and lightning. He was taken down, yes, but probably because Krayt's used Force power Cade never expected to be on the receiving end of.
In any case, I'd be willing to submit that Krayt defeating Cade may only be comparable to Dooku's own feats, but if I had to choose one of them to win I'd side with Krayt.
And he probably spent the previous years of his life on drugs and not doing much to improve his skills. The point is that he's a several generations diluted Skywalker, with much less training than Anakin. I don't give him special commendations for beating what, Taalon and Nhil? Who are ultimately just two skilled acolytes from a relatively unknown faction of sith. [/B]I think you're selling all parties involved short here, and while there's obviously a difference between Cade and Anakin, Anakin has always given Dooku hell, whereas Cade is incapable of providing a similar challenge to Krayt.
And if we're going to discuss Force connection as a barometer of success with a lightsaber, look only to Krayt's comparisons to Luke, as well as Caedus due to the Throne of Balance.