Darth Maul vs. Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik (Legends)

Originally posted by Vixas
To be fair, the KOTOR II Exile and Meetra are all but different people if one simply looks at their competence. I find it highly likely Drew didn't care to study someone else's character and considering he even sacrificed "his own" character in Revan to the Vitiate wank of that novel, I'd say without reservation that KOTOR II "Meetra" is the more powerful version.

That being said, Maul is a rather inconsistent character and I feel like this comes about from simply being portrayed in multiple forms of media and by different people regardless of who/what the character truly is. IE: It's to be expected.

Operating under the assumption this is Maul as of SoD to give him his best chance, that is all it really is, a chance and to be frank not a very favorable one. If we assume that by "Meetra" this is also the canon LS Exile then by the end of KOTOR II then I don't think the team will slaughter him in sabers given that Meetra would be more inclined to fight defensively and I doubt Scourge's ability to deal a killing blow without more active application of skill from his partner. That being said, the team would eventually win the saber duel as I also find it an impossibility that Maul kills either one of them quickly, he then proceeds to get frustrated as he is oft to do (one of the few things kept truly consistent with the character) and dies via over-extension after a moderately difficult duel if it is kept just to that. It also goes basically without saying that Maul's dueling prowess is > his realized force power and given the power of his two opponents he's not going to be able to use the Force exclusively against one without the other punishing him for it. Basically leaving him in the above described position where as his options and stamina dwindle frustration will set in and Maul will slip up for the loss.

As a little joke here at the end: Likely from tripping over a rock and impaling himself on his own saber or something equally retarded.

However, I am not sure why people are not able to reconcile Meetra Surik with Jedi Exile. After the events of KoTOR II, Surik's wound healed completely and she was [normal] again. Whatever benefits her Wound condition conferred on her in KoTOR II, evaporated accordingly.

Secondly, Old Republic sources have mostly promoted Revan as the top dog of his time. Even Chris Avellone have unofficially asserted that Revan was too powerful for even the duo of Darth Traya and Jedi Exile to cope with, in a hypothetical fight.

I wouldn't blame Drew Karpyshyn for depicting the obvious.

The Exile healing her wound doesn't mean she (would)lose her gained power.
It's just that Drew wanted to wank Vitiate to the most powerful Force-user of them all. And, thus, he undermined the KotOR 2's characters' feats. He's just an idiot. And not only Revan novel, even in his best-seller, the Darth Bane Trilogy, Bane never wielded a purple(badass Windu)lightsabre, even, though, the comics did depict him with a purple lightsabre. Or, another instance when in his first comic, Bane wasn't depicted as the Brotherhood of Darkness' reason behind their demise, it was just Kaan's fault and Bane defected or wasn't present there. As a matter of fact, Bane, originally, didn't create the Rule of Two because of his low view on Kaan's order, but because those Sith died, and Bane, being the only Sith, would build a new Sith belief system where only two should exist to take over the galaxy, because too many draw the enemy's attention.

I think, that pre-book, Bane might have been just one of the many members in Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness who shared the same vision with them.
So, the problem is with Drew Karpyshyn.

Mate, would have been better if Bane was in the Brotherhood from the beginning(taken as child). He understands what Kaan does is bad and flees. Then makes a new order, etc. But, nah, Drew wanted something else, someone else.

Originally posted by slayne
@AP:

If we're following your line of reasoning, then Traya should be more powerful than Baras as well given that the Wrath has sensed Baras before and deemed Traya more powerful. Yet her codex entry tells us that she was 'dominated' by Baras into doing his bidding, suggesting that Baras has superior power. So forgive me if I'm not exactly too sure about the validity of the Wrath's judgement of her power.

He bound her spirit with a ritual, of course he dominated her spirit. She was the source of his power. 😬

Originally posted by slayne
That's great, but... how does this help her chances against Maul? All this does is put her an unknown distance above nameless, featless, and most likely fodder Jedi.

How the hell are the likes of Satele Shan, the Barsen'thor, Orgus Din, Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, Aryn Leneer, and Wyellett fodder?

@AP:

He bound her spirit with a ritual

How the hell are the likes of Satele Shan, the Barsen'thor, Orgus Din, Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Kao Cen Darach, Ven Zallow, Aryn Leneer, and Wyellett fodder?

Vowrawn says it.

That's not how it works, only Jedi powerful enough to gain the attention of the Emperor were sent to be killed by Scourge. None of the others were. The only exception might be Barsen'thor, but the First Son appears to be < Scourge, so.

As the Emperor's Wrath its Scourge's job to know the capabilities of the Orders best Jedi.

Given how each individual act of the Barsen'thor takes place prior to the Hero's, we can infer that:

Lord Scourge ~ Act II Hero > Barsen'thor > First Son > the Emperor's Children > Act II Barsen'thor > heavily weakened Barsen'thor > Terrak Morrhage.

@AP:

Vowrawn says it.

That's not how it works, only Jedi powerful enough to gain the attention of the Emperor were sent to be killed by Scourge. None of the others were. The only exception might be Barsen'thor, but the First Son appears to be < Scourge, so.

I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power. Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say. 😬

👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some good points there. Credit where due.

However, I am not sure why people are not able to reconcile Meetra Surik with Jedi Exile. After the events of KoTOR II, Surik's wound healed completely and she was [normal] again. Whatever benefits her Wound condition conferred on her in KoTOR II, evaporated accordingly.

Secondly, Old Republic sources have mostly promoted Revan as the top dog of his time. Even Chris Avellone have unofficially asserted that Revan was too powerful for even the duo of Darth Traya and Jedi Exile to cope with, in a hypothetical fight.

I wouldn't blame Drew Karpyshyn for depicting the obvious.

As to your first point Legend, while it's inferred the Exile's status as a wound in the force offers them a unique connection to the Force through others it stands to perfect reason, especially after there are multiple instances of the Exile themselves having forced dialogue options of it, that their connection is not what it used to be. Granted most of these options appear on Paragus when Kreia is mentally guiding the Exile back into feeling the Force and getting used to it and it's natural that after accommodating to this new (weaker and more distant) way of tapping into the Force and becoming more skilled/adept/etc at it that the Exile would stop complaining about it as it began to feel more natural. What I am mainly referring to, though, is not exactly "OMG Exile not stronk enough" in the book but the fact that it's blatantly obvious Drew just didn't care about the character. Meetra just lacks a certain level of competency that other characters, like Revan for example, still seem to maintain from their games. While Meetra honestly seems like some random named Padwan tossed in along with Revan if you look at them just based on the book. Though the worst part of their portrayal is likely how they died, in my opinion, back-stabbed and instantly slain by a character introduced in the very same book that, at the time, people knew relatively little about. (IE: All but a nobody) As one book is a VERY short time time to properly characterize important characters, never mind when you're splitting this spotlight amongst a group of three.

As for Revan, I am aware. I was not attempting to assert that I thought the Exile > Revan. I was only stating that even Revan, who I am aware is/was the top dog of that era until that time, was barely able to put up a fight against Vitiate. Even after all the turmoil, crisis and development the character goes through, along with the Exile in their own game, it all gets canned by some (at the time) newly named mook named Scourge and an Emperor being wanked to the stars.

Originally posted by slayne
I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power.

HoT had not even left Tython in Act I and Jedi Masters of the time were pointing out that his skills were at par.

Prior to meeting the original Emperor's Wrath, HoT defeated Lord Praven in single combat (who in turn defeated/killed Master Usma - one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in its history, during the Sacking of Coruscant event and humbled Jedi Master Bela Kiwiiks in another fight), a Child of the Emperor known as Valis (who ragdolled Kira Carsen), Sith Lord Sadic whose abilities in combat were augmented by cybernetic implants, Darth Angral (among the top dogs of his time and credited for defeating/killing Master Orgus Din) and Emperor-possessed Kira Carsen.

The above are extraordinary accomplishments for a Jedi.

In comparison, Darth Maul defeated/killed Master Jinn. Big deal.

Originally posted by slayne
Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say. 😬

HoT - by the end of Act II - was the most powerful Jedi in existence, and in a span of generations since Revan.

And Vitiate would regard fodder as threats? News to me.

Beating a child of the emperor is extremely impressive BTW. Even Act III 'Thor had trouble with one of them. The Hero easily beating one in Act I is a fantastic feat imo.

Not sure, there’s like zero chance of the Exile soloing though.

I don't see why Scourge can't solo.

Malgus is far above both though.

Scourge (Emperor's Wrath) is an entirely different beast than Lord Scourge in Revan. Even members of the Dark Council respected his power/prowess at this stage.

That he stalemated the strongest Jedi since Revan in a fight, is indication of his growth in power and experience over the course of years. Bear in mind that he has [Shatterpoint] and benefits conferred by corporeal immortality on his side.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prior to meeting the original Emperor's Wrath, HoT defeated Lord Praven in single combat (who in turn defeated/killed Master Usma - one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in its history, during the Sacking of Coruscant event and humbled Jedi Master Bela Kiwiiks in another fight), a Child of the Emperor known as Valis (who ragdolled Kira Carsen), Sith Lord Sadic whose abilities in combat were augmented by cybernetic implants, Darth Angral (among the top dogs of his time and credited for defeating/killing Master Orgus Din) and Emperor-possessed Kira Carsen.

The above are extraordinary accomplishments for a Jedi.

In comparison, Darth Maul defeated/killed Master Jinn. Big deal.

Big deal indeed, given Qui-Gon's better than anyone you named, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Big deal indeed, given Qui-Gon's better than anyone you named, lol.

Qui-Gon is a legendary Jedi Master and one of the most powerful Jedi Knights of all time, one of the most formidable swordsmen during the prime of the Jedi, is reckoned as one of the most skilled swordsmen in the history of the Order, and has humbled Anoon Bondara, who was also one of the best fighters during the prime of the Jedi and was regarded by many in-universe as the best in the Order. He's also said to have "had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance". That's better than anything you listed.

Usma is only considered one of the "most famous" Jedi duelists of his time, not one of the best of all time, and his time has comparatively paltry swordsmen to the PT Order. Bela Kiwiiks has nothing to her name (she lost to a pair of no-name Sith), Orgus has nothing to his name except "experience" in fighting Sith, and the person who beat him, Angral, was beaten by Harron Tavus. I have no reason to be particularly impressed by Valis ragdolling Kira or Sadic's cybernetics.

Maul beating Qui-Gon while being injured is well above any of HoT's combat feats, especially up to meeting Scourge. Then Maul betters that on Naboo by holding the upper hand against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at once. Scourge has got nothing on him.

Maul got destroyed by Ben Kenobi in 3 moves, lost to Kanan, and got gutted by Pasawan kenobi

He’s trash tier

Originally posted by slayne
@AP:

Quote?

"Can't it simply break free?"

"She's bound by the chamber, we must free her with our own ritual."
- Wrath and Vowrawn, The Old Republic

Originally posted by slayne
The source which states this is in-universe, and even if it is taken to be true, Maul is still so laughably superior to the Jedi which Meetra scales from that it really doesn't matter if she scales off them or not.

I mean, Scourge was stalemated by a massively pre-prime Act II HoT, someone who prime Maul royally humiliates in anything remotely concerning combat or power. Therefore we know for a fact that every Jedi who was killed by Scourge was below the A2 HoT, and so you're effectively scaling Meetra to an unknown margin above beings who are literal fodder compared to Maul. Doesn't exactly do much for Surik, I must say. 😬

How the fvck is Maul laughably superior to the Barsen'thor? Are you high?

Where the fvck are you getting the idea that Maul humiliates Act II HoT who scales directly off of the Barsen'thor who defeated the First Son, tanking multiple lightsaber strikes with a lesser Force barrier and then TKing him into a boulder. The First Son, whose power was incomprehensible to the other Children of the Emperor, who are all evidently more powerful than Vivicar. Who was channelling the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. Yet he still couldn't defeat a Barsen'thor who was on his deathbed after using a fatal shielding technique six times in a row.

Maul's not humiliating anyone. 😂