Wendigo Vs Gorilla Grodd

there was no context for controlling grundy and nightshade--aside from money. luthor put a billion dollar bounty on superman. grodd controlled a bunch of villains to try and collect. and whatever state they ARE still magical. he can easily control animals AND magic-based characters. again, seems very well suited to this match. and taking constantine down with tp is a VERY good feat. he has defenses against everything...

i think rachel's powers were def down played in that arc--thats the same version who went one on one with thor. she was at one time holding 3 wendigos at once with her tk. i think her brain was on fire because she was exhausted. /shrug

maybe she couldn't shut down the mind of a wendigo, but before she had a chance to try she was taken out. she could in this type of setting just crush it with tk.

versions of grodd have exhibited powerful tk, but most don't. not sure about the most recent one. he MAY start out in h2h (and he did do reasonably well against aquaman before arthur finished him off) but he'd learn quick that isn't the best bet and resort to his tp. he wouldn't be getting one shot in this thing--he's taken some serious punishment in the past, most notably by flash...

i think some wendigos have inferred tp defense (rachel was able to sense them, sense their emotions but obviously couldn't read the animal nature of their minds) but i'd like to see a focus effort made against one and see what happens. could she have burned out a mind? i dunno. i think had she gone all out, yeah, probably. but it would likely have killed the monster and the host so she'd never do it.

regarding baptiste--i couldn't find on panel where it said it was him. more than one outside source confirmed it, but i guess they could be wrong. and it is odd he was in the US, but i thought one of the more recent arcs maybe allowed the curse to cross into the US now....

Originally posted by leonidas
there was no context for controlling grundy and nightshade--aside from money. luthor put a billion dollar bounty on superman. grodd controlled a bunch of villains to try and collect. and whatever state they ARE still magical. he can easily control animals AND magic-based characters. again, seems very well suited to this match. and taking constantine down with tp is a VERY good feat. he has defenses against everything...

i think rachel's powers were def down played in that arc--thats the same version who went one on one with thor. she was at one time holding 3 wendigos at once with her tk. i think her brain was on fire because she was exhausted. /shrug

maybe she couldn't shut down the mind of a wendigo, but before she had a chance to try she was taken out. she could in this type of setting just crush it with tk.

versions of grodd have exhibited powerful tk, but most don't. not sure about the most recent one. he MAY start out in h2h (and he did do reasonably well against aquaman before arthur finished him off) but he'd learn quick that isn't the best bet and resort to his tp. he wouldn't be getting one shot in this thing--he's taken some serious punishment in the past, most notably by flash...

i think some wendigos have inferred tp defense (rachel was able to sense them, sense their emotions but obviously couldn't read the animal nature of their minds) but i'd like to see a focus effort made against one and see what happens. could she have burned out a mind? i dunno. i think had she gone all out, yeah, probably. but it would likely have killed the monster and the host so she'd never do it.

regarding baptiste--i couldn't find on panel where it said it was him. more than one outside source confirmed it, but i guess they could be wrong. and it is odd he was in the US, but i thought one of the more recent arcs maybe allowed the curse to cross into the US now....

that's my point. How do we know how he did it? did he have help? did he do it through trickey? did he do it during a fight? etc. To many unanswered questions. Their magical, but then again not magically invulnerable. Once again you need to get off the wendigo is an animal kick. He is a spirit and demon who actually unlike the other has magical invulnerability who even shaman (one of marvels elite magical users) said prevented him from using the full effect of his powers on him.

your making some hefty stretches rather then just admit her telepathy had troubles against wendigo. Thor fought the Wendigo in the story too...he became one himself in the end. Didn't seem like she was exhausted, but made mention kurt was and had to change tactics as they weren't getting anywhere. Only one that seemed drained or weakened was nightcrawler with his constant porting....then they would wait until the ones they ported away to come back. Would have been very ideal to shut the wendigo down here or take control of a few as they were dealing with the same ones.

I strongly disagree. She had MANY opportunities and was only taken out by walter after he turned at the end of the story. Also Wendigo is that easy to crush? Has Grodd shown such TK skill he could crush a Wendigo as well?

Yes, but again has Grodd done that? He also wasn't doing to great against Mullah. His strength showings are not very consistent either. But again if were using virus wendigo all it takes is a scratch and bite and grodd is turned. if we don't use virus wendigo I don't see Wendigo going down easy period.

Pretty sure she was very focused and took it very serious the entire story. She showed not once but multiple times even reading their minds was difficult. Nighcrawler: "what are they doing?", "Rachel: "I think....they're scared". Now does Rachel or Grodd typically do that? and why would that attack kill the wendigo? I feel your giving Grodd to many liberties while neglecting wendigo's established story and feats

Where were these sources that confirmed it? I tried to look it up and found nothing...not sure if this is accurate as there is no footnote... says Jason Aaron intended it to be a different wendigo host. They also think Mr Wendigo is the same wendigo from omega flight. Which is actually possible as neither spoke english nor did it say it's typical yell out its name. the wendigo virus host in W&XM #2 didnt speak or yell its name either
www.marvunapp.com/Appendix7/wendigo_ha.htm. Every apperance of Wendigo after WWW the Wendigo has been in Canada

that's my point. How do we know how he did it? did he have help? did he do it through trickey? did he do it during a fight? etc. To many unanswered questions. Their magical, but then again not magically invulnerable. Once again you need to get off the wendigo is an animal kick. He is a spirit and demon who actually unlike the other has magical invulnerability who even shaman (one of marvels elite magical users) said prevented him from using the full effect of his powers on him.

when i said no context, i meant no context. he was literally standing on a roof controlling all the villains. as for constantine, he wiped him out along with animal man and the others effortlessly. and the wendigo has repeatedly been referenced as animalistic. the recent ones in amazing xmen seem less...magical than the older ones. the older ones also seemed to have humans still in reach. either way seems like grodd is well suited here.

your making some hefty stretches rather then just admit her telepathy had troubles against wendigo. Thor fought the Wendigo in the story too...he became one himself in the end. Didn't seem like she was exhausted, but made mention kurt was and had to change tactics as they weren't getting anywhere. Only one that seemed drained or weakened was nightcrawler with his constant porting....then they would wait until the ones they ported away to come back. Would have been very ideal to shut the wendigo down here or take control of a few as they were dealing with the same ones.

i'm not making a stretch at all. she'd been fighting a long time. her brain on fire meant she was exhausted to me. she was also holding 3 of them--it would certainly have been exhausting fighting all of them. you're making excuses for them along the lines of why doesn't superman use his super speed all the time. absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

I strongly disagree. She had MANY opportunities and was only taken out by walter after he turned at the end of the story. Also Wendigo is that easy to crush? Has Grodd shown such TK skill he could crush a Wendigo as well?

crush a wendigo? who said anything about that? the only thing needing crushing would be the brain. and yeah, his tk was capable of handling green lanterns, so IF he had it here, he should pretty easily be able to crush one brain. you already said he's vulnerable to tk as it's physical. no reason he couldn't crush the brain. like there was no reason rachel couldn't imo. it would kill the entity though so she never would. she has blocked mjolnir--pretty sure she could summon the force needed to crush a brain....

Yes, but again has Grodd done that? He also wasn't doing to great against Mullah. His strength showings are not very consistent either. But again if were using virus wendigo all it takes is a scratch and bite and grodd is turned. if we don't use virus wendigo I don't see Wendigo going down easy period.

sure if its virus wendigo. but then as common knowledge grodd would know not to get scratched and would use tp from the get-go.

Pretty sure she was very focused and took it very serious the entire story. She showed not once but multiple times even reading their minds was difficult. Nighcrawler: "what are they doing?", "Rachel: "I think....they're scared". Now does Rachel or Grodd typically do that? and why would that attack kill the wendigo? I feel your giving Grodd to many liberties while neglecting wendigo's established story and feats

not sure what you mean here. i've already said she coudn't read their minds... but she could get a sense of them and their thoughts. i said if they used tk to crush the brain (rachel has opened a BLACK HOLE for goodness sake, and has molecular levels of tk feats) she could crush a brain. even if it healed it would ko the thing.

Where were these sources that confirmed it? I tried to look it up and found nothing...not sure if this is accurate as there is no footnote... says Jason Aaron intended it to be a different wendigo host. They also think Mr Wendigo is the same wendigo from omega flight. Which is actually possible as neither spoke english nor did it say it's typical yell out its name. the wendigo virus host in W&XM #2 didnt speak or yell its name either
www.marvunapp.com/Appendix7/wendigo_ha.htm. Every apperance of Wendigo after WWW the Wendigo has been in Canada

the usual fan-sourced material:

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Georges_Baptiste_(Earth-616)

may or may not be true, but it seems like it was a legit wendigo. /shrug

anyway, as i said--grodd has controlled animals, and magic/magical-related beings. weight of evidence would seem to suggest he was well suited to this match. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
when i said no context, i meant no context. he was literally standing on a roof controlling all the villains. as for constantine, he wiped him out along with animal man and the others effortlessly. and the wendigo has repeatedly been referenced as animalistic. the recent ones in amazing xmen seem less...magical than the older ones. the older ones also seemed to have humans still in reach. either way seems like grodd is well suited here.

hmmmm? they just showed up already under grodds control. So when did he take them over? he did it off-panel prior to sending them to fight Batman/Superman. how did he do it? one on one? during a fight? with prep? etc. He showed up with them already under his control, but we have zero context how and when he did it.

again none of them are know for having invulnerability without prep which they didn't have there.

Yes referred to be an animal-like, but as stated many times is a demon spirit.

Less magical? Ok now I know your trolling. Talsiman was there because they were magical and was cancelling the curse saving some before she tried to do that big spell before being stabbed. Wendigo was crossing the border and turning back into humans due to the curse. The Xmen then even go to the spirit realm to fight magical creatures...like how, HOW? in your mind can you seriously say they were less magical then previous stories. This was one of their biggest magical stories for the wendigo sans Mauvais

Humans still in reach? haha ok Leo. Sure if you ignore all the onpanel statements and years of continuity. 😬 I just don't understand how you don't get it. "the cannibal is overcome by his own greed and gluttony. His very humanity begins to melt away, when all that remains is the physical embodiment of his insatiable hunger the wendigo is born"

Wolverine: "...wilderness cannibal gets possessed by the spirit of wendigo. same spirit. different body

soon after the act of cannibalism, ALL aspects of the cannibal's humanity becomes OBLITERATED as the person assumes the voracious appetite and bestial instructs of the wendigo". Later it states "....during the fight cartier's mind was COMPLETLY SUBMERGED"

"Under MOST circumstances a Wendigo possesses only a crude animal-like intellect; certain individuals have proven able to retain their human intelligence via use of magic".

Ghost rider "...and invoked the ancient curse that transformed him into the wendigo. As the last vestiges of his humanity were CONSUMED, his soul screamed out to his beloved "

"then, his LAST vestiges of HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS fading, the shaggy woodsbeast turns to the granite wall that imprisons him"

The ONE example you used to say that it should be considered fact and ignore everything else says "in a fleeting moment of incongruous (ie. not in harmony or keeping with the surroundings or other aspects of something) calm, the wendigo pauses to regard its damaged hand -- itself straining to focus -- to reveal a life before the rage, before the curse"...."so focused and driven by it's primal rage-- that the tiny spark of humanity still left within the possessed beat -- grasps once more at a flickering memory of what had come before" That doesn't scream to me the human is easily accessible which even says this was incredibly rare and contradicts years and years of other on-panel statements. This was used as a way to show how the wendigo turned into the wendigo and nothing more

again if it was so easy as you say why haven't ANYONE pulled the human out of them? 😬 You trying to give scenarios as fact for your character even though no one has ever done it

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not making a stretch at all. she'd been fighting a long time. her brain on fire meant she was exhausted to me. she was also holding 3 of them--it would certainly have been exhausting fighting all of them. you're making excuses for them along the lines of why doesn't superman use his super speed all the time. absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

No she wasn't. They even were having breaks between the waves. They had a lot of downtime between their first encounter in UXM9 until AX11 where she makes the brain on fire comment.

AXM9 - Weren't fighting long and then Talisman saves them. they have an extended talking scene and were resting while talisman did all the work with the spell. wolverine stabs her in the back.

AX10- Starts off the team BFR the wendigo that was around and colossus holding wolverine-wendigo until they bfr him too. Then they stand around and talk some more. round 2 starts and everyone is fine as they keep bfr removing them. Kurt is working over-time. Then they stand around again, talk, attempt to heal talisman, talk. Alpha Flight arrives, they talk, then they fly to the portal. Battle at portal starts

AX11-Portal fight continues and nightcrawler keeps porting them away. Rachael mentions the last wave was 7 minutes before last, the wave before was 12 minutes before the last so because nightcrawler getting more tired (even says he is) they are returning quicker and quicker but still lots of downtime. Next wave arrives and that's when Rachael says her brain is on fire while other then nightcrawler (which makes sense) no one else seems tired or drained

Not at all your trying to say characters are going to act and do feats they have never done before.

Originally posted by leonidas
crush a wendigo? who said anything about that? the only thing needing crushing would be the brain. and yeah, his tk was capable of handling green lanterns, so IF he had it here, he should pretty easily be able to crush one brain. you already said he's vulnerable to tk as it's physical. no reason he couldn't crush the brain. like there was no reason rachel couldn't imo. it would kill the entity though so she never would. she has blocked mjolnir--pretty sure she could summon the force needed to crush a brain....

Sorry I misinterpreted what you said. you meant brain thought you meant him in general like crush into a ball. So you have examples of Grodd doing that? If you don't your point is invalid.

No reason Rachel couldn't.... unless Wendigo had some sort of magical defence which prevents the full capabilities of powers. *le gasp. Obvious answer is obvious.

Why would it kill the entity?

Originally posted by leonidas

sure if its virus wendigo. but then as common knowledge grodd would know not to get scratched and would use tp from the get-go.

Really isn't public knowledge. Most of the world doesn't even believe the wendigo is real. Even after the first few virus outbreaks no one knew about it in the amazing X-Men story

Other then speedforce grodd. I say good luck not being scratched when they have tagged speedsters as well as Nightcrawler and Wolverine.

Originally posted by leonidas
not sure what you mean here. i've already said she coudn't read their minds... but she could get a sense of them and their thoughts. i said if they used tk to crush the brain (rachel has opened a BLACK HOLE for goodness sake, and has molecular levels of tk feats) she could crush a brain. even if it healed it would ko the thing.

Exactly. All she could do was get a very vague sense of them. Which what would that imply? They have a form of telepathic resistance. She even struggled to read their minds, she made a guess on them being scared. ie. the original debate was Wendigo having telepathic defence which you were adamant was not true.

in the above section you said it would kill the wendigo, glad your backing down. So once again WHEN has Grodd EVER done anything in that regard?

Originally posted by leonidas

the usual fan-sourced material:

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Georges_Baptiste_(Earth-616)

may or may not be true, but it seems like it was a legit wendigo. /shrug

anyway, as i said--grodd has controlled animals, and magic/magical-related beings. weight of evidence would seem to suggest he was well suited to this match. /shrug

Well then I'm confident to say that is busted

Of course you would say it was a legit wendigo haha. Now why would you say it was a legit ? We even saw the same group make a fake Wendigo and not once did Wendigo actually say his name. His trademark

Not at all. Your misinterpeting a great deal of things. Wendigo is NOT an animal. Demonic spirit that possesses a human. Doesnt matter how many times you say it, he is not an animal and people more advanced the grodd could not easily do it (or at all). He affected Magical beings, sure...but without the same invulnerablity as wendigo. So once again how does that make it fact?

I do find it interesting you keep giving all the high showings for characters you are arguing (and even showings they dont even have), but refuse to allow that for Wendigo

i've tried to remain civil for longer than i typically do, but the accusations and patronizing are starting to pi$$ me off.

hmmmm? they just showed up already under grodds control. So when did he take them over? he did it off-panel prior to sending them to fight Batman/Superman. how did he do it? one on one? during a fight? with prep? etc. He showed up with them already under his control, but we have zero context how and when he did it.

really? he took out constantine with no effort, and his whole team, including animal man. no prep, no gear. you want to pretend you're making a point by saying you don't know the context of how he took out grundy, and imply he needed help, be my guest. nothing was alluded to, and he's taken down much larger fish. when he was done with him, grodd discarded grundy like he was worthless. grundy, whose creation is rooted in magic, AND in a curse. and wth are you talking about--grundy's invulnerability is RIDICULOUS. if anything it's>>wendigo's. certainly in some incarnations at least. he has been stabbed by MICHAEL's sword and kept fighting ffs. through the heart!

Less magical? Ok now I know your trolling. Talsiman was there because they were magical and was cancelling the curse saving some before she tried to do that big spell before being stabbed. Wendigo was crossing the border and turning back into humans due to the curse. The Xmen then even go to the spirit realm to fight magical creatures...like how, HOW? in your mind can you seriously say they were less magical then previous stories. This was one of their biggest magical stories for the wendigo sans Mauvais

all those words for a meaningless point. i guess because of the way it spread. and i didn't say it WAS less magical. it FELT less magical since it had never worked like that and felt less rooted in the typical curse. i didn't say it as a point to be debated, but merely the way i saw this particular story. christ man, take a breath.

Humans still in reach? haha ok Leo. Sure if you ignore all the onpanel statements and years of continuity. erm I just don't understand how you don't get it. "the cannibal is overcome by his own greed and gluttony. His very humanity begins to melt away, when all that remains is the physical embodiment of his insatiable hunger the wendigo is born"

you claim i'm ignoring showings when you essentially HAND WAVED every scan i showed of wendigos SHOWING blatant humanity, remembering their humanity and even talking like humans. even if mr wendigo WAS made with a different virus, he was STILL referenced as A wendigo. not a new type, not a different type, but a WENDIGO, by the xmen. who tend to know what a wendigo is....so was the one in omega flight.

you can wave them away and cry about lack of context--fact is you have no more proof they WEREN'T true wendigos, than i do that they WERE. they were called wendigos. treated as wendigos. maybe they were simply different types.
ones that do NOT live up to your preconceived, and apparently dearly held, notions. but I'M ignoring showings? you cling to the same line over and again, despite being shown 5-6 scans that directly contradict your idea of what the wendigo is and that is somehow....solid debating strategy? wth is going on here? even the very first wendigo had the human inside it screaming for help for an undefined amount of time. and yet you still insist the human is obliterated inside the beast--despite the beast REMEMBERING its human life?

No she wasn't. They even were having breaks between the waves. They had a lot of downtime between their first encounter in UXM9 until AX11 where she makes the brain on fire comment.

are you kidding me? you won't even acknowledge she, and the rest, were tired as phukc?

https://imgur.com/a/0ErDA

"we can't keep this up." now who's trolling...

Humans still in reach? haha ok Leo. Sure if you ignore all the onpanel statements and years of continuity. erm I just don't understand how you don't get it. "the cannibal is overcome by his own greed and gluttony. His very humanity begins to melt away, when all that remains is the physical embodiment of his insatiable hunger the wendigo is born"

smh i was talking about the FIRST wendigo--you know, the one who had the human in him actually TALKING to the hulk for a prolonged time? that one. in time his consciousness did fade--obviously--but for a prolonged period of time the human WAS in reach. was in fact, TALKING to hulk.

Not at all your trying to say characters are going to act and do feats they have never done before.

sigh... while we're using cliched debate techniques, here's one in return--i've never seen superman bake a cake before either, ergo i guess it's impossible for him to do so. 👆

rachel has created a black hole. yet she couldn't crush the brain of a wendigo even though, while exhausted, she was tk holding THREE of them? sounds reasonable. far more reasonable than her not wanting to potentially harm the host. and if talisman and shaman are so sharp, why don't they just bfr a wendigo to the US? seems an easy solution. especially if they are unconscious. you said they should turn normal in the US. why didn't thor just bfr the lot of them? you mean the story likely wouldn't have been quite so cool?? le gaspe! obvious IS obvious. 👆

the original debate was Wendigo having telepathic defence which you were adamant was not true. in the above section you said it would kill the wendigo, glad your backing down. So once again WHEN has Grodd EVER done anything in that regard?

lol your first point is a blatant lie--i said AFAIK wendigos i didn't have tp defense. had any been shown at the time, i'd have said, cool, and the thread would have ended.

and i didn't back down from anything. it MAY well kill a wendigo to crush its brain. it MAY well heal. don't know, don't...really give a phukc. it WOULD end the fight though unless you have some proof it could live through having its brain crushed...? or maybe she crushes its heart....that would be easy and apparently an insta-win according to you and the retcon.

and i SAID i don't even know if grodd HAS tk. christ, stop telling me what i said. i even said most times grodd does NOT show tk. you're bouncing all over and have lost track of what's even being debated.

Of course you would say it was a legit wendigo haha. Now why would you say it was a legit ? We even saw the same group make a fake Wendigo and not once did Wendigo actually say his name. His trademark

i haven't scratched my head and muttered wtf like this since the last time i debated carver. he didn't say his name....? and THAT is your proof? whew.

first, i said it was APPARENTLY baptiste, and then actually ASKED YOU for info about it because all i could find was the website i showed. i even TOLD you it was a fan source. you seem like you caught me out or something. btw whatever did turn him doesn't mean he was NOT still a wendigo. a different type? sure. but there are already tons of versions. what's one more?

Well then I'm confident to say that is busted

busted what exactly?? lol all the above is nonsense. this started because me, then smurph:

Originally posted by Smurph
Is there a feat of Wendigo resisting or defending against TP, then?

had a simple question. to which you said:

Yeah mentioned on page 1

**looks back at page one...sees muttering about no name hosts, sees penance stare (which is nothing like tp) and....nothing else.**

now it's page 3 and...nothing. still. i can't prove a negative. you said they have defense. SHOW IT. show a scan of a tp trying and failing to shut down a wendigo's mind. ANYONE. not a scan of rachel sort of being able to read SOME sense from them.

your only proof is the ABSENCE of proof. and you say I'M crediting people with things they haven't done?? you don't have a SINGLE scan, in 3 pages, to support you stance. and you question why I'M convinced of my stance?

i've shown grodd controlling animals and making them sentient. i've shown him controlling magical beings. even a being rooted in a CURSE, like wendigo. i've shown wendigos behaving like humans, remembering their humanity and even talking, despite you saying they HAVE no humanity, but you hand wave everything away.

your only important point all along was they HAVE defense. prove it. this isn't hard.

i am completely content to let people read this for themselves and come to whatever conclusions they want, based on the EVIDENCE shown. you can have your final word. the thread has worn out its welcome for me.

you know what I think we should leave it at that. Were getting heated and it's not going anywhere. In the end it's not worth it and would rather still be civil and friendly with you.

I apologize for my end of things.