^^ That is a way more reasonable conclusion. That Thor is likely on a similar level, as opposed to being able to stomp groups of Ward/May level characters.
Because, logically, the other one doesn't even make sense. Otherwise, Coulson believes there are random mercs from different countries who can solo groups of May/Ward-level opponents and such, SHIELD's best, and, by extension, go toe-to-toe with aliens and killer robots. And their very best being fodder to someone Coulson suspected of potentially being a merc from South Africa would directly contradict the notion that they are among the best on the planet.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You know exactly what I mean. That statement could simply mean general SHIELD agent standard.So, again, how does a single statement from 2011 (two years before AoS even started) alone put them on par with top level SHIELD agents with multiple seasons worth of feats, including fights against superhuman opponents?
Because I am not arguing that they aren't trained and skilled. But the notion that a single statement = multiple seasons worth of feats is reaching.
I didn't mean to imply that those SHIELD agents were on the level of May or Ward, because it would be completely stupid to think that Thor can one-shot May or Ward. The reason I mentioned those 2 (and the other SHIELD agents) was to point out that we have never seen a SHIELD field agent that wasn't a skilled fighter, which should put the SHIELD agents that Thor beat up a notch or two above the average thug fodder.
You have to admit, even Ward doesn't take out the average SHIELD agent as easily as seen in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaaU9KClANI
Though to be fair, that was way more agents than Thor ever took out.
Anyway, my point was not to argue that Thor wins this but simply to argue against some posts claiming T'Challa stomps. I think the fight is close enough that it can go either way.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I didn't mean to imply that those SHIELD agents were on the level of May or Ward, because it would be completely stupid to think that Thor can one-shot May or Ward. The reason I mentioned those 2 (and the other SHIELD agents) was to point out that we have never seen a SHIELD field agent that wasn't a skilled fighter, which should put the SHIELD agents that Thor beat up a notch or two above the average thug fodder.You have to admit, even Ward doesn't take out the average SHIELD agent as easily as seen in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaaU9KClANI
Though to be fair, that was way more agents than Thor ever took out.
Anyway, my point was not to argue that Thor wins this but simply to argue against some posts claiming T'Challa stomps. I think the fight is close enough that it can go either way.
Well, without diving deeper into the rest of the thread, my stance on those SHIELD agents are that one can assume that they are a clear step above your average MCU fodder, considering what we know of SHIELD training in general. But lack of actual feats makes it next to impossible to accurately rank them beyond that.
But it's still a very good feat for Thor, because it suggests that his H2H skills are above that of an average SHIELD agent, and more comparable to high tier guys.
It's a good fight. But human Thor fought random SHIELD agents and did pretty good. The big one was an issue for him. He put him down, but that guy was a thorn in Thor's side and he had to work to win the fight. Also that was his only fight.
T'Challa on the other hand took down M'Baku without his Herb powers. M'Baku, who I will reiterate. Stood above a fully grown man, crouched down and grabbed that man by that back of the neck(or maybe his shirt), then stood back up, lifted that man above his head with one arm and casually held him there while he officially joined T'Challa's faction. After that, he easily flings him over his back at least 10 feet, again with just one hand. After that, he sends a guy flying with his club, and is easily wading through W'Kabi's highly trained warriors who defend the entire nation of Wakanda. Skill and extreme strength, and T'Challa took his hits and defeated him.
He also took on Killmonger who is easily one of the most skilled fighters we've seen. He lost true, but I'm of the belief he was not 100% in the fight since he felt horrible his father killed his uncle and made his cousin an orphan, turning him into the monster at Wakanda's door. He felt guilty and his heart wasn't in it. But he still put up a great fight.
Also T'Challa is durable enough to survive impalement, a thousand or so foot drop, and then carted to the highest mountain peak after laying there for who knows how long.
So T'Challa has more fights than Thor. Against more impressive opponents.
Originally posted by carver9
Supposedly is the key word. You know we don't debate like this. Thor took down people that doesn't have any showings. Let's not pretend he fought a group of Bruce Lee's. With that said, Tchalla actually fought and defeated someone who is damn near super human. There is no comparison between the two. Panther stomps.
I just love to see how BIASED these guys become when Thor is concerned.
They would bend feats and invent any bullshit in order to make Thor win.
Thier love for Thor clearly clouds their judgement.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You know exactly what I mean. That statement could simply mean general SHIELD agent standard.So, again, how does a single statement from 2011 (two years before AoS even started) alone put them on par with top level SHIELD agents with multiple seasons worth of feats, including fights against superhuman opponents?
Because I am not arguing that they aren't trained and skilled. But the notion that a single statement = multiple seasons worth of feats is reaching.
I never said those agents were on par with top level Shield Agents, I was responding to the massive low-balling of Thor by certain people. hell Thor impressed Hawkeye and Phil so much that Hawkeye made a joke about sending in more guys for Thor too beat up and Phil let him have a shot at lifting Mjolnir.
They obviously didn't consider Thor to be at "random merc" level
Originally posted by KingD19
It's a good fight. But human Thor fought random SHIELD agents and did pretty good. The big one was an issue for him. He put him down, but that guy was a thorn in Thor's side and he had to work to win the fight. Also that was his only fight.T'Challa on the other hand took down M'Baku without his Herb powers. M'Baku, who I will reiterate. Stood above a fully grown man, crouched down and grabbed that man by that back of the neck(or maybe his shirt), then stood back up, lifted that man above his head with one arm and casually held him there while he officially joined T'Challa's faction. After that, he easily flings him over his back at least 10 feet, again with just one hand. After that, he sends a guy flying with his club, and is easily wading through W'Kabi's highly trained warriors who defend the entire nation of Wakanda. Skill and extreme strength, and T'Challa took his hits and defeated him.
He also took on Killmonger who is easily one of the most skilled fighters we've seen. He lost true, but I'm of the belief he was not 100% in the fight since he felt horrible his father killed his uncle and made his cousin an orphan, turning him into the monster at Wakanda's door. He felt guilty and his heart wasn't in it. But he still put up a great fight.
Also T'Challa is durable enough to survive impalement, a thousand or so foot drop, and then carted to the highest mountain peak after laying there for who knows how long.
So T'Challa has more fights than Thor. Against more impressive opponents.
Thor didn't do "just well" against the agents. He one-shot most.of them except for the big one at the end.
And M'Baku is a very strong human but not superhumanly strong, at least not for movie standards where everything is somewhat exaggerated. Because if what he did is considered superhuman, then Thor surviving getting hit by a truck twice without a scratch can qualify him as superhuman too.
Not saying Thor wins against T'Challa, but it is far closer than you make it seem. We have no idea how M'Baku or the foes he fought would fair against SHIELD agents.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Thor didn't do "just well" against the agents. He one-shot most.of them except for the big one at the end.And M'Baku is a very strong human but not superhumanly strong, at least not for movie standards where everything is somewhat exaggerated. Because if what he did is considered superhuman, then Thor surviving getting hit by a truck twice without a scratch can qualify him as superhuman too.
Not saying Thor wins against T'Challa, but it is far closer than you make it seem. We have no idea how M'Baku or the foes he fought would fair against SHIELD agents.
Notice the big one at the end is the only one I went into detail about. Because he was the only one worth mentioning.
There are movie standards, but we've had Marvel movies for 10 years since Iron Man back in 08. "Regular" people don't hoist 200lb men up by the neck made even heavier by armor and hold them there, then fling them away like ragdolls. They don't swing a 6-foot war club like a bat and send people flying. They don't mow through soldiers with vibranium swords and 7 foot tall energy shields with a wooden war club. Whether you like it or not, M'Baku is beyond a normal human, and T'Challa surviving his hits and then beating him is extremely impressive.
Thor being mostly okay from the first hit was impressive, but a normal human could survive a side swipe like that. Go on youtube. They might've even done something like that on Jackass. The second time he got hit was barely a tap. Regardless though, the hit and him getting tasered had him completely unconscious for a while. So not unlike a normal human there. And the big SHIELD agent certainly got some good hits in, so it's not like he can ignore punches.
Put M'Baku in the same situation as Thor, and every single SHIELD agent, big one included, go flying. It won't be a fight. As for W'Kabi and the Border Tribe(they literally defended the borders of Wakanda from any and everything), they were the elite guard of Wakanda itself. They were the army and the protectors of the whole country. They were to Wakanda what the Dora Milaje were to the King. So if anything they are on the same level rank-and-file wise as generic SHIELD soldiers. I'm not sure how they'd fight, but we can assume they're slightly lower than people like Okoye and W'Kabi, who are the elite Wakandans.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I never said those agents were on par with top level Shield Agents, I was responding to the massive low-balling of Thor by certain people. hell Thor impressed Hawkeye and Phil so much that Hawkeye made a joke about sending in more guys for Thor too beat up and Phil let him have a shot at lifting Mjolnir.They obviously didn't consider Thor to be at "random merc" level
Well, then I don't know why you bothered responding to me directly, right after a post I made, as my point was clear.
And you say that, yet Coulson himself accuses Thor of being a mercenary in that very same scene, and starts listing off countries. So, to him, based on what he says, that's exactly what Thor was. Random doesn't necessarily mean bad/unskilled. In this sense, it means from no known agency.
Anyway, my point is that one piece of dialogue =/= multiple seasons worth of feats. And you apparently agree there, so continuing this whole exchange is rather pointless.
Wrong. Before he became "just some random pirate", Batroc was a Master Sergeant in the French Foreign Legion. Once he left the Legion, he joined DGSE. Later he became a merc/terrorist/pirate.
Rumlow directly stated "Top mercs, led by this guy. Georges Batroc. Ex-DGSE( Direction Générale de la Sécurité Extérieure), Action Division. He’s at the top of Interpol’s “red notice”(red notice is Interpol getting permission to extradite you back to your home country to face trial. The Red Notice is the highest priority one they have.). Before the French demobilized him, he had thirty-six kill missions."
By the time Cap caught up to him, he'd done 62 linked high-profile crimes. Each of which he caused maximum casualties in the process.
He was wanted by at least, but not limited to, the FBI, British Ministry of Defence, and Chinese MSS. Interpol as well.
He's no joke and far from some "random pirate". He just went up against Cap.
T’Challa is really nothing with out the Panther serum. Even less without the suit. He’s a great fighter, but he’s not that powerful.
We saw in Civil War without his suit, Bucky gives him hell. This is a Bucky that was already exhausted by taking Natasha, Tony, Falcon, Cap and the other chick.
Thor may not win, but it’s not an easy fight for Panther.
One thing I'd like to point out:
Depowered Thor fights more or less the same way he does at full power. Just with less strength, durability and power jumps.
Depowered T'Challa fights differently from BP. As BP, he has a high flying, extremely acrobatic and agile fighting style. Depowered, though he was still acrobatic it was done lower to the ground, more rolls than sommersaults and backflips, with more emphasis on grappling tactics than high flying kicks.
Originally posted by FrothBytethat could easily be chalked up to where he was fighting. You're not going to be jumping very high in water. It would also be incredibly risky/stupid to try to be acrobatic in a small, wet area that ends in a cliff fall.
One thing I'd like to point out:Depowered Thor fights more or less the same way he does at full power. Just with less strength, durability and power jumps.
Depowered T'Challa fights differently from BP. As BP, he has a high flying, extremely acrobatic and agile fighting style. Depowered, though he was still acrobatic it was done lower to the ground, more rolls than sommersaults and backflips, with more emphasis on grappling tactics than high flying kicks.
Originally posted by SquallX😂 you're acting like he was tired and panting. He two shotted falcon and even used his metal arm to take him out. I find it funny that you would even list Steve when Bucky was clearly trying to kill him with Rodgers obviously holding back. Tony's level of skill is nearly non-existent and I think we both know that T'challa would have taken him out just as easily. Hell, Natasha was trying to reason with him too.
T’Challa is really nothing with out the Panther serum. Even less without the suit. He’s a great fighter, but he’s not that powerful.We saw in Civil War without his suit, Bucky gives him hell. This is a Bucky that was already exhausted by taking Natasha, Tony, Falcon, Cap and the other chick.
Thor may not win, but it’s not an easy fight for Panther.
Honestly, do you even remember that scene? Panther owned him and Bucky had to run away.
If Winter Soldier actually wanted to kill Steve and Falcon, he could have picked up a gun and shot them both when they came downstairs and he still had the drop on them. We see more than one lying on the ground from the guys Bucky took out before they made it down. Hell, after BFR'ing Steve, he could have gone back and finished the job on Falcon too. But his priority was not killing, it was clearly getting out of the building.
And the Steve "holding back" argument only goes so far. He didn't intentionally get himself thrown down an elevator shaft, thereby giving Bucky a huge head start in his escape. If it wasn't for the delays caused by the others, Steve wouldn't have caught up in time. And earlier in the film, he still said that he had to be the one to take Bucky down because he was the least likely to get killed in the process. He might not have wanted to kill him, but he certainly didn't want Winter Soldier mode Bucky loose around others.
And Winter Soldier also wasn't running away from T'Challa. His agenda was clearly escape even before that, based on what we see. Hell, he gets the better of their initial exchange and floors T'Challa, but instead of pushing the advantage, he turns around and starts walking away.