Can you prove him wrong?

Started by snowdragon6 pages

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
You're all over the place with your reply...

So what exactly is the "market value" of an illegal immigrant working illegally?

So you have unscrupulous employers willing to use illegal immigrants to dodge the tax system & pay them cash in hand...but you won't find an unemployed American going for the same job as well because it's illegal & immoral?

Great post from Australia, apparently you know what Americans will and will not work for. The market value is obviously what they are willing to work for if you think it's for like 5 bucks an hour you are wrong, they aren't underpaid.

The reason businesses like to use day workers is the ease of adjusting pay to jobs being done at the time. Then you don't have to deal with all the red tape the govt creates with employees.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He opens his presentation with the following statement:

"Some people say that mass immigration into the United States can help reduce world poverty."

First question: who?

Who says this? I've never heard anyone say this. Never. Even the most libtarded of libtards don't say this. Sure, someone somewhere probably said this. Maybe even several people. But almost no one would say something this stupid.

As far as increasing immigration to the US, yes, we should do that. Our immigration laws need to be reformed and we should fix our tax system.

Why? So we get more honest tax revenues, we get more of the best and brightest, and other poorer countries can benefit from the prosperity of the immigrants.

We should expand the H1-B Visa program.

I disagree with his fundamental position that we are stealing their best, brightest, most dissatisfied, and energetic. We are not taking from those countries. They almost always give back to their families and friends. We should speed up and modernize the immigration process and make it easier for the best and brightest to come here. They will contribute. They will pay more into the system. On average, they are overwhelmingly more responsible and well-behaved than even multi-generational American Families.

Also, he gets a +1 from me on a proper and great use of "plurality" when he refereed to Mexicans and their immigration numbers. It is a concept I wish more people understood and used. For example, "White people are no longer the majority in NYC." No, but they are still, by quite the large margin, the plurality.

Conclusion: He is 100% correct in the points he is making. There is nothing factually incorrect with the statements he is making. However, his premise is a strawman. No, we cannot solve poverty with more immigration. No, we should not allow millions and millions of immigrants from all over the world to immigrate to the US. But we should definitely take in more of the best and brightest, fix our tax code to collect more taxes, and modernize our immigration laws and processes.

Well said, I also agree. To bad our man Gary Johnson didn't win, he spoke to the same points🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
Who says this? I've never heard anyone say this. Never.

You must not read much about this then.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Great post from Australia, apparently you know what Americans will and will not work for. The market value is obviously what they are willing to work for if you think it's for like 5 bucks an hour you are wrong, they aren't underpaid.

The reason businesses like to use day workers is the ease of adjusting pay to jobs being done at the time. Then you don't have to deal with all the red tape the govt creates with employees.

So you're advocating tax evasion & illegal immigrants working illegally.

Since you brought up Australia, if these "day workers" were above board here, they would be classified as sub-contractors... they do would their day's work then submit the hours along with their banking details &/or Tax File No. or Aust. Business No. (ABN) to the employers. Every thing is CONVENIENTLY electronically tracked (money changing hands) & recorded for tax purposes.

Where's the red tape there?

You seem to just want to make petty excuses for an unscrupulous business or employer to get away from paying their due taxes.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Then you don't have to deal with all the red tape the govt creates with employees.

So how many illegals do you have working for you?

You must be living the good life with all that tax money you're not claiming...

Originally posted by snowdragon
Well said, I also agree. To bad our man Gary Johnson didn't win, he spoke to the same points🙂

Nice, high five.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You must not read much about this then.

In the vid, he said that even the most liberal positions put immigration expansion to double at 2 million. That's nowhere near the strawman he implies in his opening statement.

Also, I said that they probably do exist but I've never heard people say that. I have some fairly extreme libtarded friends (every bit the stupid SJW types you see mocked in those YouTube videos posted quite often in the Triggered thread). They have never said something so dumb as the strawman he opened with.

The US can end world poverty.

Blow up the world = no more world poverty.

👆

Originally posted by dadudemon

Also, I said that they probably do exist but I've never heard people say that. I have some fairly extreme libtarded friends (every bit the stupid SJW types you see mocked in those YouTube videos posted quite often in the Triggered thread). They have never said something so dumb as the strawman he opened with.


Then you haven’t encountered truly hardcore SJWs/lefties. I’ve heard those types say things that are even more outrageous than that.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
No, you're just not hearing what you want to hear, and you don't know what you're ****ing talking about.

Roy Beck argues that immigration hurts the immigrant's home country's economy, while doing next to nothing for people as humanitarian cause because there are still billions of poorer people in the world...

I don't know of anyone who claimed immigration to wealthier developed countries was the solution to world poverty. Humanitarianism takes a utilitarian approach of helping as many people as possible--the numbers that count--and was never an all-or-nothing endeavor. The only thing he suggested that I found agreeable was the need to develop impoverished countries, but he shared no ideas of his own on how to do so. Infrastructure, technology, agriculture, and potable water programs seem like a good start.

Whatever losses in raw GDP a country might experience are often recouped, and then some, via remittances from immigrants who now make enough to support themselves AND their families back home.

Wikipedia - Remittance

As long as we're discussing poverty, I'd take it a bit further and suggest we need the following here at home:

*a drastic redistribution of wealth via tax reform that favors the poor working classes and the middle class

*a significantly-reduced military budget;

*an increase to infrastructure projects;

*free public universities;

*a single-payer healthcare system;

*and stricter legal accountability for elected officials and businessmen.

Eternal Idol 2020

Good post, but a few things.

Because he didn't name the common sense ideas "Infrastructure, technology, agriculture, and potable water programs seem like a good start" and he didn't say those key words that everybody like to say and hear, means he didn't offer solutions?

I think you can agree, just because he didn't say those words, doesn't mean he doesn't believe in them, I think you could also agree that just because someone says them doesn't actually mean anything. Pro active words are empty without proactive action behind them.

Remittances don't solve the receiving countries problems if they only supply a small portion of basic necessities from those countries. Like you said about: "Infrastructure, technology, agriculture, and potable water programs seem like a good start", if those don't exist, remittances are not going to solve the problem for the receiving country.

Also, do we know if remittances are taxable, and how much, and how much it is enforced and how successful, because that is really the only way that remittances would help the receiving country besides the tax on good purchased with those remittances.

Lets just take a country like Mexico, who is in constant poverty, but they took in 26.1 billion in remittances last year, and its their top sources of income. Meanwhile we have a $463 billion trade deficit as of last year with Mexico.

So why does this matter in regards to everything we have been talking about.

Simply, we bring in people illegally, they cut in line in front of the legal immigrants, send their money home to make Mexico richer, even though they are a 3rd world country, and meanwhile they dont help their people much and we have stacked up a $463 billion trade deficit with them?

How does it help the people in the US with this situation to be replaced with people who send their money home and weaken the job market here at home for the people that are competing with those low skilled jobs?

Yes they can come here and instead of making $10-20 a day, they can make $80-100. But how does it help the US and the people here given everything described above?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Then you haven’t encountered truly hardcore SJWs/lefties. I’ve heard those types say things that are even more outrageous than that.

I don't think I want to know those people. They sound terrible. 🙁

😂

Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think I want to know those people. They sound terrible. 🙁

Believe me, they are.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Believe me, they are.

Got that right. Or should that be Left?

Originally posted by dadudemon

In the vid, he said that even the most liberal positions put immigration expansion to double at 2 million. That's nowhere near the strawman he implies in his opening statement.

Also, I said that they probably do exist but I've never heard people say that. I have some fairly extreme libtarded friends (every bit the stupid SJW types you see mocked in those YouTube videos posted quite often in the Triggered thread). They have never said something so dumb as the strawman he opened with.

I mean, the common open borders position is that open borders would double global GDP, so applied to the United States that should result in a pretty substantial reduction in global poverty if you accept that conclusion. I suppose there are three primary ways this would happen:

1. Helping the actual immigrants coming in.

2. Those immigrants sending remittences back.

3. The boost in the US's economic productivity reverberating.

Do I think it's possible that this is true? Yes, but I'm hesitant of course for a variety of reasons (e.g. security concerns, welfare overload).