Kylo Ren vs. Magnaguards

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
. If you look at Luke, he didn't get any real lightsaber training besides the basic deflections lesson from Obi-Wan yet he becomes someone who can challenge Darth Vader in a relative short period. So no, I think that Rey killing the same number of guards isn't against the original argument I made for Kylo.

Difference here, Luke didn't just have a single day to improve his saber skill before he fought Vader and he did have training from both Obi-Wan and Yoda to help him with The Force too.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Difference here, Luke didn't just have a single day to improve his saber skill before he fought Vader and he did have training from both Obi-Wan and Yoda to help him with The Force too.

The period when Rey is one the planet with Luke is longer than a day and she already had years of experience using her quarterstaff so she got that on Luke (who was completely inexperienced in ANH). It's also said in TLJ novelization that when she and Kylo formed their bond (during the interrogation scene) she could look inside his head and learned some of his powers.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
The period when Rey is one the planet with Luke is longer than a day and she already had years of experience using her quarterstaff so she got that on Luke (who was completely inexperienced in ANH). It's also said in TLJ novelization that when she and Kylo formed their bond (during the interrogation scene) she could look inside his head and learned some of his powers.

Yeah but she didn’t really get much out of it other than a lecture and self practice. Also how convenient she could do that.

Are we talking about Luke's teachings? Yeah, sure it's basic indeed. And well it's actually something that hasn't happened before in the SW universe so I don't see why it would be 'convenient'. She's the main character of the story because she can do these things, not the other way around.

Kylo. If we accept at face value all Kylo needs to become Vader level is turning fully to the Dark side, he is probably at lowest Id say a Kit Fisto level guy.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Depends how you really look at it, the Last Jedi novelization and the Force Awakens Visual Guide (partially) answers those complains. On Jakku, Rey trained daily to hone her skills with her quarterstaff to the point that she is said to have 'perfected' stabbing, swinging, ... motions. The TFA visual guide confirms that these skills are excellent for the transition to "shorter melee weapons" (AKA a lightsaber). On the other hand, she's probably on of the most natural Force wielders out there and the OT (and now the ST) have placed the emphasis on Force power (and its mastery) rather than duelling techniques. If you look at Luke, he didn't get any real lightsaber training besides the basic deflections lesson from Obi-Wan yet he becomes someone who can challenge Darth Vader in a relative short period. So no, I think that Rey killing the same number of guards isn't against the original argument I made for Kylo.

Moreover, as we learned when Kanan went over the basics of lightsaber usage and combat with Sabine: just because you have a preexisting proficiency with weapons(in Sabine's case she was proficient with a very large variety of weapons), doesn't mean you can just pick up a lightsaber and automatically know how to use it effectively/efficiently in battle. That takes training with a lightsaber specifically, no matter who you are.

That said, I *want* to believe Ben can handle these particular Magnaguards... But beating a few PGs just isn't indicative of such, imo. 🙁

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Going back to the RotS duel I think it's also important to make a distinction between an Obi-Wan and Anakin that are going full throttle on an opponent and them fighting some random magnaguards. Sure, they had some difficulty defeating them but it never seemed they were in an extremely dangerous situation that would push them to their limits.

Magnaguards destroy Kylo.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Sure agreed, on the other hand those PT guards are the best warriors the First Order - an organisation that is centred around creating super soldiers as it's standard personel - has as they need to represent Snoke's fighting protection considering his deminished physical state (TLJ Visual Guide). I think that if those magnaguards, 50 year old technology by the time of TFA, are truly superior than those PT guards than Snoke would buy a truckload of those and let them be trained. Add to that the lightsaber resistent armor they wear and defeating them becomes a lot more difficult.

I mean we don't really know the context behind the creation, training, etc. of those magnaguards. What we know more clearly is that they gave two of the best warriors of the PT some sort of challenge while Kylo and Rey took on a far larger quantity of PG's, and several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon. If you choose not to accept those OOU sources (which I can sympathize with) then it becomes more of a question, though I still think all the evidence points to Anakin >>>> Kylo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon

Quotes, please.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Snoke had the funds to built 60 km ships, I think that if Magnaguards were truly superior to the PT guards he could've used them to protect him?

Originally posted by Galan007
Rey's 'mastery' of the staff only made it 'easier' for her to be comfortable handling shorter-handled weapons, like a lightsaber. The fact still remains that she had virtually NO formal training with a lightsaber, yet still managed to make short work of a few Praetorian Guards... I understand she is a natural prodigy with the force(the 'yin' to Ben's 'yang' as it were), but she was still an absolute n00b with the weapon, yet proceeded to 'fodderize' the PGs in rapid succession by seemingly out-fighting them.

Moreover, as we learned when Kanan went over the basics of lightsaber usage and combat with Sabine: just because you have a preexisting proficiency with weapons(in Sabine's case she was proficient with a very large variety of weapons), doesn't mean you can just pick up a lightsaber and automatically know how to use it effectively/efficiently in battle. That takes training with a lightsaber specifically, no matter who you are.

She had indeed no formal training, just like Luke? He was never trained in lightsaber combat by Obi-Wan or Yoda (except the basic introduction on the Falcon) but most learned most of it through self practice and fighting against opponents. It has been established that those extremely powerful with the Force just have a natural affinity for lightsaber combat and that the connection you have with the saber is really important (Sabine's training under Kanan) and we both know how it called for her in TFA. She obviously lacks the refinement most PT duelists had or even Kylo but the reason she defeats those PT is her incredible connection to the Force and her experience fighting on Jakku. I don't really see how it matters that because she received no formal training suddenly the PT guards aren't skilled? There are different ways of achieving skill and battle prowess.

Regarding Sabine, well she's a non-force sensitive trying to use a lightsaber. Jedi - and force sensitives in general - have the Force which helps (enhanced reflexes, ...). Rey also struggled in the beginning against Kylo in TFA, it was only after she led the Force guide her that she actually became proficient. The Last Jedi novelization also points this out during her duel with the PT guards, that she's struggling and is actually losing at one point before she gives herself over to the Force and let it guides her.

That said, I *want* to believe Ben can handle these particular Magnaguards... But beating a few PGs just isn't indicative of such, imo. 🙁

Seems to me like you're trying to downplay the Magnaguards, whilst simultaneously acting like the Praetorian Guards are these unbelievably uber warriors. Curious why the double-standard?

I'm not downplaying the magnaguards, they're proficient warriors but there's a difference in urgency when fighting a magnaguard (something Obi-Wan and Anakin have experience enough in) and confronting someone like Dooku, that's all I want to say. We shouldn't expect them to have the same motivation and drive during all their duels. The reason I find PT guards superior is because Magnaguards are 50 years old by the time of the ST and even crime lords like Grakkus have them in large numbers. I don't see why Snoke, with his reach and knowledge, wouldn't utilize them if they are so superior?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean we don't really know the context behind the creation, training, etc. of those magnaguards. What we know more clearly is that they gave two of the best warriors of the PT some sort of challenge while Kylo and Rey took on a far larger quantity of PG's, and several OOU sources say that PT duelists >>> all in the new Canon. If you choose not to accept those OOU sources (which I can sympathize with) then it becomes more of a question, though I still think all the evidence points to Anakin >>>> Kylo.

I think it's an over simplification to say that all PT duelists are >>>. In general are they more refined but that didn't stop Luke from taking on Vader or Kanan/Ezra from defeating the Inquisitors (who were all PT Jedi). Besides, those PT guards definitely gave Kylo and Rey quite a challenge, far more than the magnaguards did to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I can agree that Anakin and Obi-Wan are superior duelists to Kylo and Rey (although I think that Kylo's the better fighter of the two) but I wouldn't say the margin is huge. Noticeable sure but he was still trained by Luke.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
We also knew quite a few CIS droids were superior to Clones and as such random Stormtroopers too, yet he had none. The lack of appearance does not show an inferiority. Otherwise we can pretend Destroyer Droids are less than one Stormtrooper.

Droids in general also have other drawbacks compared to actual sentient beings. Besides First Order warriors measure up different compared to clones or Imperial stormtroopers.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Droids in general also have other drawbacks compared to actual sentient beings. Besides First Order warriors measure up different compared to clones or Imperial stormtroopers.

Also First Order guards don't have years of hype and TV shows showing how good they could or should be. I can guarantee an equal number of Destroyer Droids would do better than an equal number of First Order Stormtroopers though. But then it doesn't make sense why Snoke wouldn't include them in the army? Therefore they must be inferior!

Use their actual showings to make a point, not their lack of appearances.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
She had indeed no formal training, just like Luke? He was never trained in lightsaber combat by Obi-Wan or Yoda (except the basic introduction on the Falcon) but most learned most of it through self practice and fighting against opponents. It has been established that those extremely powerful with the Force just have a natural affinity for lightsaber combat and that the connection you have with the saber is really important (Sabine's training under Kanan) and we both know how it called for her in TFA. She obviously lacks the refinement most PT duelists had or even Kylo but the reason she defeats those PT is her incredible connection to the Force and her experience fighting on Jakku. I don't really see how it matters that because she received no formal training suddenly the PT guards aren't skilled? There are different ways of achieving skill and battle prowess.

So again, beating the PGs certainly isn't a feat that seems indicative of beating these particular Magnaguards, imo. srug

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Regarding Sabine, well she's a non-force sensitive trying to use a lightsaber. Jedi - and force sensitives in general - have the Force which helps (enhanced reflexes, ...)

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I'm not downplaying the magnaguards, they're proficient warriors but there's a difference in urgency when fighting a magnaguard (something Obi-Wan and Anakin have experience enough in) and confronting someone like Dooku, that's all I want to say.

So given such tremendously high stakes, I would imagine there was indeed a strong sense of urgency on Kenobi and Anakin's part.

...But that's neither here nor there. I would argue that RotS Kenobi or Anakin would stomp the bejesus out of Kylo in a duel, even if they went into it with a completely calm/casual/non-urgent demeanor. /shrug

Kylo Ren is dueling though. It'd be like trying to burn the sun with a candle. Look at all the skill he showed, virtually unheard of

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean the CIS had considerable funds as well, and there's a limit to how powerful I think non-Force sensitives could be relative to robotic magnaguards programmed with fighting instructions who can give Obi Wan/Anakin trouble.

Why are we assuming they're non force sensitive here?

Originally posted by Galan007
So was Rey...

Not to mention that if the guards were really non force sensitives, there's no way they wouldn't be getting insta blitzed by kylo.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I think it's an over simplification to say that all PT duelists are >>>. In general are they more refined but that didn't stop Luke from taking on Vader or Kanan/Ezra from defeating the Inquisitors (who were all PT Jedi).

Don't forget amateurish duelists like Ventress and Savage from challenging masters like Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace.

When it comes to canon, non-force sensitives can go toe to toe with Jedi and barely trained duelists can stand up to prodigies with decades of training.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
For someone who has luke+ potential, I think natural talent goes a long way.

However, tremendous latent potential doesn't change the fact that she still had next-to-no training with a lightsaber -- heck, she hadn't even held one until a few days prior to fighting the PGs. Despite this, Rey still managed to out-fight the Guards right alongside Kylo... Again, I only mention this because it makes Kylo beating a few PGs substantially less impressive, and on its own, is certainly not indicative of him being able to defeat these Magnaguards. Imo.

Put any two PGs against RotS Anakin and Kenobi, for example, and I don't see them giving the duo anywhere near the pause the Magnaguards did. /shrug

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not to mention that if the guards were really non force sensitives, there's no way they wouldn't be getting insta blitzed by kylo.