Kylo Ren vs. Magnaguards

Started by Galan0074 pages

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't forget amateurish duelists like Ventress and Savage from challenging masters like Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Mace.

When it comes to canon, non-force sensitives can go toe to toe with Jedi and barely trained duelists can stand up to prodigies with decades of training.

Except Rey wouldn't even qualify as a 'barely trained' duelist. She literally has NO formal training with a lightsaber at all.

Ventress and Savage, on the other hand, each had training from one of the best duelists in the entire mythos. Additionally, Ventress had received formal Jedi training years before she even came to Dooku -- I certainly wouldn't call her an 'amateur' duelist, but that's just me. /shrug

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
weren't the guards force sensitive in legends?

Why are we assuming they're non force sensitive here?

The Praetorian Guards were never in Legends.

They are Non-Force Sensitive until noted otherwise. The Guide doesn't mention anything, so the book is probably the last bit were gonna get to see what goes on about them.

So in the end, they could just be peak human. Guess we'll see in the TLJ if that changes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Except Rey wouldn't even qualify as a 'barely trained' duelist. She literally has NO formal training with a lightsaber at all.

Ventress and Savage, on the other hand, each had training from one of the best duelists in the entire mythos. Additionally, Ventress had received formal Jedi training years before she even came to Dooku -- I certainly wouldn't call her an 'amateur' duelist, but that's just me. /shrug

DarthDuelist9 already pointed out that she had a few leg ups in that department, far moreso than Luke did. He had absolute bupkis. If you want to complain about anything, complain about him. At least Rey had a good decade+ of melee weapon training and experience.

They had minimal training, Savage in particular. Luminara outright called Ventress' form sloppy and amateurish. Her technique isn't close to a fully trained master like Obi-Wans, but she competes with him through general aptitude and her abilities as a warrior. In canon, formal training isn't that important.

Originally posted by Nephthys
DarthDuelist9 already pointed out that she had a few leg ups in that department, far moreso than Luke did. He had absolute bupkis. If you want to complain about anything, complain about him. At least Rey had a good decade+ of melee weapon training and experience.
But Luke still received *some* formal training with a lightsaber specifically -- he also had longer to refine the few skills he learned. Rey didn't.

Granted, Rey was well-adept with her staff, so she was more comfortable transitioning to a shorter-handled weapon(which is likely why she didn't inadvertently lop off an arm or somesuch)... But that's where the parallels between these two [vastly different] pieces of weaponry stops entirely.

Do you think that someone who is proficient at using a Bo Staff could pick up a Katana for the first time and demonstrate a remotely similar degree of proficiency, without any sort of formal training? Of course not.

Uber latent potential only goes so far... Especially when Rey had only been using a lightsaber for a matter of days before fighting the PGs. /shrug

Originally posted by Nephthys
They had minimal training, Savage in particular. Luminara outright called Ventress' form sloppy and amateurish. Her technique isn't close to a fully trained master like Obi-Wans, but she competes with him through general aptitude and her abilities as a warrior. In canon, formal training isn't that important.
Again, they still had *some* formal training from one of the single best duelists in the entire mythos. Rey didn't.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Praetorian Guards were never in Legends.

They are Non-Force Sensitive until noted otherwise. The Guide doesn't mention anything, so the book is probably the last bit were gonna get to see what goes on about them.

So in the end, they could just be peak human. Guess we'll see in the TLJ if that changes.


I thought they were a new version of the imperial guards sids employed?
However, tremendous latent potential doesn't change the fact that she still had next-to-no training with a lightsaber -- heck, she hadn't even held one until a few days prior to fighting the PGs.

Well she did have melee training via all the practice she had with that staff. And the main point regarding her potential was her reflexes. Irrelevant of whether she's technically skilled or not, surely she should have the natural reflexes to blitz non force sensitives?

Also, I recall that tecnical skill was largely tied to power as the force was what jedi used to guide their movements. Rey is certainly powerful atthis point(see the boulder feat).

As for the magna guards performance vs Anakin, frankly, i'd pint hat down to the limitations of live action. Let's be real here, magna guards aren't taking on Anakin and Kenobi.

If we take their performance at face value, then yeah, they should win. But frankly, I'd put that along with Hondo stalemating Anakin and Yoda struggling with a few rocks. If Lucas wasn't looking for extra action in his movie, Anakin and Kenobi blitz.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I thought they were a new version of the imperial guards sids employed?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they are Force Sensitive.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah, but that doesn't mean they are Force Sensitive.

I'd figure you would replace force sensitives with force sesitives

It would explain how they didn't get rofl stomped by a force sensitive at least.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd figure you would replace force sensitives with force sesitives

It would explain how they didn't get rofl stomped by a force sensitive at least.

The RG in the New Canon haven't been noted as Force Sensitive.

There could be other explanations, cybernetic augmentation would be another.

Hmm interesting:

Kylo had retreated at finding Rey in his head – had practically fled from her. But that had not been the end of that strange, sudden connection. She had seen more – far more. Somehow, almost instinctually, she knew how he accessed some of the powers at his command – even though she didn’t understand them. It was as if his training had become hers, unlocking and flinging open door after door in her mind.

Seems Snoke gave Rey an artificial power boost. Curious he would do such a thing if he wants Kylo to kill her...

Also apparently, Rey didn't do as well as Kylo:

She couldn’t direct the Force well enough to last long against three elite warriors in lightsaber-resistant armor. But she could let it direct her, allow it to make her its instrument.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hmm interesting:

Seems Snoke gave Rey an artificial power boost. Curious he would do such a thing if he wants Kylo to kill her...

How great that it comes to her, before all that fighting started.

Hm, hm....but anything else?

what i don't get, is why snoke would empower her if he wanted her dead...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what i don't get, is why snoke would empower her if he wanted her dead...

Unless Snoke was lying and wanted her to replace Kylo. Although it wouldn't be the first thing that wouldn't make sense in TLJ if he didn't.

Originally posted by Galan007
But Luke still received *some* formal training with a lightsaber specifically -- he also had longer to refine the few skills he learned. Rey didn't.

Granted, Rey was well-adept with her staff, so she was more comfortable transitioning to a shorter-handled weapon(which is likely why she didn't inadvertently lop off an arm or somesuch)... But that's where the parallels between these two [vastly different] pieces of weaponry stops entirely.

Do you think that someone who is proficient at using a Bo Staff could pick up a Katana for the first time and demonstrate a remotely similar degree of proficiency, without any sort of formal training? Of course not.

Uber latent potential only goes so far... Especially when Rey had only been using a lightsaber for a matter of days before fighting the PGs. /shrug

Two minutes against a targeting drone doesn't really count. He didn't learn any movements or techniques, just how to use the Force to guide his movements. Which Rey figured out at the end of TFA. Combined with her decade of staff-fighting shes far more qualified than the dude going toe to toe with Darth Vader.

As shown above, she was also able to access some of Kylo's knowledge through their force bond. Again, she was far better equipped for a duel than Luke. Who btw was getting his ass kicked by Vader and had to learn on the fly just like Rey did. Both of them noticeably improve during and after only one duel.

If they had the Force, then yes.

No, in canon a strong connection to the Force allows you to intuitively fight effectively by letting it flow through you and guide your actions. That's just how it is.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, they still had *some* formal training from one of the single best duelists in the entire mythos. Rey didn't.

Which isn't my point. In canon a person having vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique doesn't actually give them much of an advantage. If I were to justify it I'd say that while technique can let you practise optimal avenues of attack and know the best angles to block from and how best to string moves together etc, the Force can also let you know those things. As long as you can keep up in the physical department, even an amateur can block a swing from a master no matter how refined the movement. A martial artist can still lose to a brawler in real life if the latter is just a naturally good fighter and has excellent physicals.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
There's your answer then of why he didn't use Magnaguards. You might as well be going around asking why every battle didn't end with a Star Destroyer orbital striking everything planetside.

Not really, my comment referred to your average footsoldier, not your elite bodyguards that need to protect you and your comparisons don't really make sense. The reason why - to follow your line of thinking - a Star Destroyer doesn't just bombard every planet and such is that it isn't always necessary to do so and the extra damage done to the planet compared to an invasion could cost the Empire resources.

Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it can't be done. And just because Snoke didn't use Magnaguards, doesn't mean they're less effective. Nobody used a lightsaber either in Snoke's playhouse, yet he had the money to build everyone 3. I guess Snoke just knew lightsabers weren't up to snuff.

Again, your comparison is completely off-topic. The fact that your footsoldier or even PT guard didn't use an actual lightsaber can have many explanantions, we know for example that they are incredibly hard to handle for non-Force sensitives and they're not necessarely the better weapon compared to let's say a staff (or any of the weapons the PT guards used).

Also First Order guards don't have years of hype and TV shows showing how good they could or should be. I can guarantee an equal number of Destroyer Droids would do better than an equal number of First Order Stormtroopers though. But then it doesn't make sense why Snoke wouldn't include them in the army? Therefore they must be inferior!

Use their actual showings to make a point, not their lack of appearances.

Droidekas naturally have their downsides obviously, they might outperform the First Order soldiers in a pure shootout but they lack the intelligence of an organic being so they'll perform inferior in a large number of situations that require fast thinking, improvisation and flexibility.

Your entire argument consists of making comparisons that have nothing to do with this argument, there are a large number of reasons the Empire didn't bombard every planet that rebelled or equiped their footsoldiers with extremely hard to use lightsabers. On the other hand there's no reason for Snoke not to use Magnaguards as his personal protection because the single goal these guards have is to well, protect Snoke.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Two minutes against a targeting drone doesn't really count. He didn't learn any movements or techniques, just how to use the Force to guide his movements. Which Rey figured out at the end of TFA. Combined with her decade of staff-fighting shes far more qualified than the dude going toe to toe with Darth Vader.
Luke also studied Kenobi's Journal extensively, and had actually *used* his lightsaber in various battles/conflicts, for a few years before he confronted Vader in ESB. #MarvelCanon

So no. Rey, who had only picked up a lightsaber for the first time a matter of days before fighting the PGs, certainly was not "more qualified" than ESB(and especially RotJ) Luke with the weapon's usage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Combined with her decade of staff-fighting
You're acting like this counts for a LOT more than it actually does, tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As shown above, she was also able to access some of Kylo's knowledge through their force bond.
The above quote hardly implies that Rey gained Kylo's prowess/skills with a lightsaber. However, I am reading TLJ novelization as we speak, so perhaps I will stumble upon something a bit more pertinent to this discussion. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, in canon a strong connection to the Force allows you to intuitively fight effectively by letting it flow through you and guide your actions. That's just how it is.
To a point, yes. But you seem to think that a strong connection to the force allows one to pick up a lightsaber for the first time, and instantly be proficient with its usage without any training whatsoever... Not the case at all.

It takes training(and in most cases, yearS of it) for even the strongest Jedi/Sith to become proficient in a duel.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which isn't my point. In canon a person having vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique doesn't actually give them much of an advantage.
Eh, wut..? Dooku, for example, had "vastly more and better training and lightsaber technique" than most, and that is exactly *why* he was so much more skilled/powerful than most.

It sounds like you're trying to imply that formalized training doesn't count for much in a battle. Suffice to say, I think such a sentiment is.... inaccurate, to say the least. /shrug

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Not really, my comment referred to your average footsoldier, not your elite bodyguards that need to protect you and your comparisons don't really make sense. The reason why - to follow your line of thinking - a Star Destroyer doesn't just bombard every planet and such is that it isn't always necessary to do so and the extra damage done to the planet compared to an invasion could cost the Empire resources.

Again, your comparison is completely off-topic. The fact that your footsoldier or even PT guard didn't use an actual lightsaber can have many explanantions, we know for example that they are incredibly hard to handle for non-Force sensitives and they're not necessarely the better weapon compared to let's say a staff (or any of the weapons the PT guards used).

Droidekas naturally have their downsides obviously, they might outperform the First Order soldiers in a pure shootout but they lack the intelligence of an organic being so they'll perform inferior in a large number of situations that require fast thinking, improvisation and flexibility.

Your entire argument consists of making comparisons that have nothing to do with this argument, there are a large number of reasons the Empire didn't bombard every planet that rebelled or equiped their footsoldiers with extremely hard to use lightsabers. On the other hand there's no reason for Snoke not to use Magnaguards as his personal protection because the single goal these guards have is to well, protect Snoke.

Your argument hinges on a big old non sequitur though. I don't even need to address it because it doesn't properly follow, which I will explain, but first, I'm using other stupid examples to show you that it doesn't follow what your logic is, IE, just because it wasn't used, doesn't mean it's worse or ineffective. And yet you couldn't stick by your own train of thought in one example. Yes there's reasons, both in universe and out. First off, Snoke is a big copycat of Sidious with those guards, both the color and them being bodyguards. That would be the biggest. Out of universe is that they didn't want PT Guards in there. They don't need a reason in actuality.
Your conclusion is about as valid as saying they're better than Dark Jedi or concluding that Bane's orbalisks are useless because not every Sith was wearing them.

There are reasons for everything, and a lot of the time that reason is just to create something new.

"Your argument has nothing to do with mine"
So what does your argument have to do with actual superiority? I said make your case based on showings, not on a lack of appearances. If your argument is boiled down to "they must be better because they weren't used... 50 years later" then don't act like you're making some amazing point. Yes he could have bought some, just like he could have bought a small army of Destroyer Droids, but the key point is that he didn't, and that proves absolutely nothing. He'd rather have hand selected guards with lightsaber resistant armor than droids no one thought of when they created the Guards.

As for the rest:

"Could cost the Empire resources"

Wasn't your original point that the First Order could build 60k ships so they could buy after market priced Droids, indicating money wasn't an issue? I realize you shifted this to the Empire as opposed to the First Order, but the Empire controlled the whole galaxy and as such is assumed to have way more money.

Yes the extra ordinance could cost money, but not moreso than repeated attacks when the Rebels get away, or the destroyed ships that happen everytime they prolong the attack.

Look at all the resources they wasted on going down to the planet in the last fight in TLJ, when Kylo could have simply killed everyone from orbit.

"There's reasons why he did that though!"

(Not good ones though)
Exactly. And there's reasons why Snoke used human guards over Droids. You just tried to say normal Stormtroopers would have an advantage over Droidekas because of their human factor. Why does that same logic not apply in the case of Magnaguards?

Then Snoke should have trained them in the force and thus they should have used a lightsaber. Therefore we can conclude that the force would only weaken them and they're better with those weapons than they would be with lightsabers backed by the force.

See, there's your logic in a nutshell. You're acting like Snoke perfected the art of picking guards and nothing else could be better. Yet, you unknowingly just admitted they weren't force users and COULD have been better. They should have been dark jedi with a lightsaber, but they weren't. There's no reason why they weren't either. That doesn't mean Dark Jedi are worse than those guards, or being Dark Jedi wouldn't have improved them, it just means they weren't Dark Jedi. Because that's how things work in stories and movies. Not everything fits perfectly into your own headcanon.

First Order Troopers are pretty junk, so I don't really see a point in bringing up flexibility, adapting, or making new plans.
But there's no reason why they couldn't roll out Destroyers on the front lines of every battle and have the highly adaptive First Order Troops in the back. Therefore an all human group is better than a 99 percent human group with nigh invulnerable minigun droids in the frontlines protecting them.

Well, I'll list them again with a little more
Magnaguards would have jumped up in price, would have been hard to get enough, and would have required additional work for upkeep and commands.
Snoke was copycatting Sidious.
No one cared enough about them from the PT to include them.
It wanted to make "new" characters instead of borrowing old characters
Droids were largely looked down upon, and it looks more imposing to have armored humans than filthy droids.
Humans are more adaptable, Snoke could read minds to prevent Droid hacking, and he doesn't have to make special commands for them.
They had lightsaber resistant armor. They would have had to redo sections of the droids to include this type of tech.
He was very egotistical and needed something as a last resort or as something he doesn't feel like dealing with.
Maybe he talked to them, who knows?
And some other dumb reasons you can make up.

If you're going to shift it to Snoke needed absolute protection, then why not just have more guards then? Because he thought 8 was enough? So if he thought 8 was enough for his absolute protection then maybe he didn't think he needed Magnaguards either? He felt perfectly safe, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been MORE safe, just that he didn't think he needed it.

I really shouldn't have had to say any of this. Use the actual showings instead of lack of appearances

To reiterate: I agree that Rey's prowess with the quarterstaff gave her a decent level of comfortability with a lightsaber, because the weapons shared some of the same basic principals(as we already discussed.)

I am just saying that proficiency with the quarterstaff doesn't automatically cross-over to an equal degree of proficiency with a lightsaber.

{edit}
Sorry, bran. Not trying to ninja you.

like I give a ****

I don't think we're even talking about the same thing. I'm still stuck on the "Snoke didn't use them, they must be worse" rhetoric.

Magnaguards.