The Empire's Wrath vs Count Dooku · Star Wars Versus Forum

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

The Empire's Wrath vs Count Dooku

Wrath as of Ziost vs Peak Dooku.

Force
Sabers
All Out

Who takes it?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ The Immortal Emperor

If we’re to believe Wrath surpasses Novel!Revan at this point, he wins conclusively.

Otherwise...well, what are your thoughts Freshest?

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Wrath

ILS Restricted

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
If we’re to believe Wrath surpasses Novel!Revan at this point, he wins conclusively.
Otherwise...well, what are your thoughts Freshest?

Why would he have?

MythLord Diamond

Tyranus.

Haschwalth Senior Member

Originally posted by ILS
Why would he have?

Mah, most powerful opponent quote.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by MythLord
Tyranus.

Any actual reasons?

SheGotHerOwn Restricted

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Any actual reasons?

An exemplary swordsman who learned the ways of the Force for several decades and then became even more powerful as a Sith, with a multitude of good TK feats and exhibition of skill in several different Force techniques, and power and skill sufficient to be one of the only two Jedi to ever overcome Mace motherf*cking Windu in a spar, hold his own against Yoda, and hold the advantage over enemies like Ventress+Savage, Grievous, Obi-Wan etc.

Anything for the Wrath that competes?

AncientPower The Chosen One

Given how insanely powerful Baras is, none of that is exactly far out of the Wrath's paygrade.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by SheGotHerOwn
Anything for the Wrath that competes?

Let's see?

An exemplary swordsman who learned the ways of the Force for several decades

The Wrath has better accolades and showings in actual saber combat, and it didn't take decades to get there.

and then became even more powerful as a Sith,

Amazing feat that no one has ever accomplished before.

with a multitude of good TK feats

Wrath has him beat here.

and exhibition of skill in several different Force techniques,

And the Wrath doesn't? Both Baras and KotFE establishes them as knowing pretty much everything there is to know about being a Sith.

and power and skill sufficient to be one of the only two Jedi to ever overcome Mace motherf*cking Windu in a spar, hold his own against Yoda,

Two people who noticeably outperform him.

and hold the advantage over enemies like Ventress+Savage, Grievous, Obi-Wan etc.

Dooku can't fight Savage in sabers and was then overpowered by him. Grievous is below Obi-Wan by miles by RotS, and is shown to be a contender with Ahsoka in TCW. Dooku can't match RotS Kenobi in sabers so that's hardly an advantage, and unless you show why Dooku's going to overwhelm the Wrath in TK more than Revan or Vitiate did, his Force showings won't matter either.

SheGotHerOwn Restricted

Pretty horrific reply; your talents are best served elsewhere, I think. Such as helping the bling boy picking cotton.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Let's see?

peaches

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Wrath has better accolades and showings in actual saber combat, and it didn't take decades to get there.

Better accolades than being regarded as one of the greatest warriors ever produced by the Order, with skill only matched by Mace and Yoda? And better feats than all that I listed? Do tell.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Amazing feat that no one has ever accomplished before.

facepalm2

You missed the point, n*gger, which was that Dooku was already a legendary Jedi and then became even more powerful as a Sith.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrath has him beat here.

Prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And the Wrath doesn't? Both Baras and KotFE establishes them as knowing pretty much everything there is to know about being a Sith.

You sound like LeGeND.

Prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Two people who noticeably outperform him.

Good thing, then, that I didn't claim Dooku was better than either. Your lack of feats and accolades in mind, I take it that you have nothing to post in Wrath's favor?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dooku can't fight Savage in sabers and was then overpowered by him.

This isn't an adequate reply. I stated that Dooku has held an edge over him+Ventress, which is true. I can provide 5 quotes from Nova's RT to prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Grievous is below Obi-Wan by miles by RotS, and is shown to be a contender with Ahsoka in TCW.

And also posed a challenge to Mace, the same book in which Dooku is indicated to have beaten him repeatedly (with difficulty, ofc). Obi-Wan beat Grievous with less difficulty (in the movie) because his style of fighting was the best suited to do so. Lowballing Grievous won't help your case seem convincing, broski.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dooku can't match RotS Kenobi in sabers

Prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
and unless you show why Dooku's going to overwhelm the Wrath in TK more than Revan or Vitiate did, his Force showings won't matter either.

One wonders why you made you made this thread when you believe that Dooku is outmatched per lightsaber skill, Force mastery, feats and accolades, and that nothing that Dooku has ever won't matter. mmm

Kurk Restricted

Dooku can't fight Savage in sabers and was then overpowered by him.

1. Savage disarmed Dooku with telekinesis

(Credit: DarthAnt66)

The angle at which Savage strikes makes it extremely unlikely for it to be because of his lightsaber, especially considering the way Dooku flies as if he's just been Force pushed:

1. https://i.imgur.com/kUuSCx7.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/IlDJfAn.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/trUVtkp.png

Dooku seems to be gaining ground in the air, or at least maintaining it, despite the angle Opress striking it being directed quite downwards. It doesn't match up. The main indicator it being telekinesis, though, is the sound effect accompanying it, which is totally different to two lightsabers clashing, but rather is similar to one of the sound effects used for Force push:

a. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=3m32s
b. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKr...Os&t=22m49s
c. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKr...Os&t=26m58s
d. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTDCRmYM9Q&t=0m54s

The sound effect is overlapped with two lightsabers colliding, hence why it's hard to tell, since both happen simultaneously.

But, overall, it makes more sense than Savage doing something like this and never again showing such level of physical strength.

Compared to Savage utilizing telekinesis in conjecture with his Force attacks, which he consistently does throughout the fight.

Grievous is below Obi-Wan by miles by RotS, and is shown to be a contender with Ahsoka in TCW.

Are we going to ignore the RotS novel where it's insinuated that Mace would lose to Grievous so Kenobi is made to go? Does this mean Kenobi > Mace? Not sure why we're limiting ourself to canon when this match-up involves a legends opponent.

Dooku can't match RotS Kenobi in sabers so that's hardly an advantage

wtf? Can't match him based on what? If you're going to cherry pick from the RotS novel (ignoring Grievous portions), it's made clear that Kenobi's form was now good enough that Dooku couldn't exploit it; not that Dooku couldn't match him lol. It was a growth in Kenobi, not a decline in Dooku.

ILS Restricted

When re-pasting bad arguments doesn't make them any better: the post.

Savage does saber-tk blast Dooku later in the fight, and it makes a distinctly different sound. Case closed.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by SheGotHerOwn
Pretty horrific reply; your talents are best served elsewhere, I think. Such as helping the bling boy picking cotton.

Now isn't really a good time for self-deprecation, fam. You're trying to prove a point.

Better accolades than being regarded as one of the greatest warriors ever produced by the Order, with skill only matched by Mace and Yoda?

I think being one of the greatest warriors the Order has ever produced, having completely mastery of the lightsaber, and matching the likes of Malgus qualifies as a better qualifier than losing to half the PT, yes. Any disparity in technical skill you could possibly come up with, which is little as far as sabers goes, will be made up for in raw power, which the Wrath has Dooku beat in.

And better feats than all that I listed? Do tell.

You listed zero feats and went on about sparring sessions, which is a great way to show that in actual combat, Dooku has lackluster showings when going up against more powerful Force Users.

facepalm2
You missed the point, n*gger, which was that Dooku was already a legendary Jedi and then became even more powerful as a Sith.

And I don't care because the Wrath is also "legendary"(as in they use the exact same wording) so this accolade is pointless.

Prove it.

I think collapsing a massive cavern dug by the Star of Coruscant with only the residual Force of one's TK is a better feat than being overpowered by Savage and casually by Sidious.

You sound like LeGeND.

And you sound like someone who should spend less time focusing on me, and more time on proving Dooku's superiority. Show how the Wrath isn't a master of the things they are said to be a master of or don't reply.

Good thing, then, that I didn't claim Dooku was better than either. Your lack of feats and accolades in mind, I take it that you have nothing to post in Wrath's favor?

Dooku not being better than either makes these points completely irrelevant. They aren't combat showings, and having nothing to do with an all out duel. Even if they show technical parity, that does not when a sabers only match when one must consider Force augmentation and intent to kill. Dooku's later saber showings do not show him to be a match, or even close, to Mace or Yoda.

This isn't an adequate reply. I stated that Dooku has held an edge over him+Ventress, which is true. I can provide 5 quotes from Nova's RT to prove it.

That's amazing, how you need Nova to make your arguments for you, but this does not change that Dooku cannot face Savage in sabers or handle his brute strength.

And also posed a challenge to Mace, the same book in which Dooku is indicated to have beaten him repeatedly (with difficulty, ofc).

See above. Sparring matches mean little in comparison to actual combat. Whatever Doku may have been a match for decades ago, however, is completely irrelevant to the present anyway.

Obi-Wan beat Grievous with less difficulty (in the movie) because his style of fighting was the best suited to do so. Lowballing Grievous won't help your case seem convincing, broski.

That's nice, and all, but given the Wrath has mastery in Forms I, III, IV, V, and VII(which requires mastery of all forms), and Grevious showings against others in the era, this isn't going to push Grievous ahead of the Wrath either. It has nothing to do with lowballing, and much more to do with the Wrath's simple superiority.

One wonders why you made you made this thread when you believe that Dooku is outmatched per lightsaber skill, Force mastery, feats and accolades, and that nothing that Dooku has ever won't matter. mmm

And while you're wondering that, you're spending a lot less time arguing your case. The effort spent on examining me has better use elsewhere, I think

Geistalt SilenceThatSpeaksVolumes

I have reason to believe the Wrath killed Jaric Kaedan on his own, and would be capable of detaining/killing the Dread Masters were he in Kaedan's place.

So this might not be a mismatch, even though Tyranus' saber feats are out of the Wrath's league.

SheGotHerOwn Restricted

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Now isn't really a good time for self-deprecation, fam. You're trying to prove a point.

I'm trying to prove a point? No, not really. You asked for reasons as to why Tyranus might win. I provided a resume of some of his accomplishments and then asked what the Wrath has to compare; in response, you decided to lowball and not post anything of substance in Wrath's favor. Remember, you're clearly the one whose mind is already made up; I'm the one who's been asking for feats and accolades to get a discussion going. That you've been unable to do so isn't my fault.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think being one of the greatest warriors the Order has ever produced,

You, corrected by me
And I don't care because ~~the Wrath~~Dooku is ~~also "legendary"(as in they use the exact same wording)~~ considerably better than warriors of the same accolade, so this accolade is pointless.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
having completely mastery of the lightsaber

mmm

You
this accolade is pointless

mhmm

Oh, and

also me
You sound like LeGeND.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
and matching the likes of Malgus qualifies as a better qualifier than losing to half the PT, yes.

Appreciate your efforts, but you can't troll me, bro. Good try, tho. 313

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
raw power, which the Wrath has Dooku beat in.

also me
Prove it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You listed zero feats and went on about sparring sessions, which is a great way to show that in actual combat, Dooku has lackluster showings when going up against more powerful Force Users.

I did list feats, actually, but you simply deflected them. Not my problem.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And I don't care because the Wrath is also "legendary"(as in they use the exact same wording) so this accolade is pointless.

Right, remind me to not care about anything you post too. Fun game, n*gger.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think collapsing a massive cavern dug by the Star of Coruscant with only the residual Force of one's TK is a better feat than being overpowered by Savage and casually by Sidious.

Dooku has easily collapsed stone ceilings as well. Hell, he displayed utter dominance over Ventress, who has collapsed stone ceilings. Plo Koon also collapsed a cave, and so did many Force wielders below Dooku's caliber, probably. So this is completely irrelevant.

Yes, I can play that game too.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And you sound like someone who should spend less time focusing on me, and more time on proving Dooku's superiority. Show how the Wrath isn't a master of the things they are said to be a master of or don't reply.

Still no indication of Wrath's superior Force mastery. I'll take the concession, friend.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Dooku not being better than either makes these points completely irrelevant. They aren't combat showings, and having nothing to do with an all out duel. Even if they show technical parity, that does not when a sabers only match when one must consider Force augmentation and intent to kill. Dooku's later saber showings do not show him to be a match, or even close, to Mace or Yoda.

This makes no sense. Your strawman is noted, but I never claimed Dooku to be a match for Yoda, only that he held his own. Which he did, and it's a good feat. For Mace, Dooku was almost an equal to him pre-TPM. So again, yes, this is completely relevant.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's amazing, how you need Nova to make your arguments for you, but this does not change that Dooku cannot face Savage in sabers or handle his brute strength.

This is only relevant if Wrath is physically stronger than Savage. Prove he is.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Whatever Doku may have been a match for decades ago, however, is completely irrelevant to the present anyway.

Indeed, because it's not like Dooku became... more powerful?

ermm1

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's nice, and all, but given the Wrath has mastery in Forms I, III, IV, V, and VII(which requires mastery of all forms), and Grevious showings against others in the era, this isn't going to push Grievous ahead of the Wrath either. It has nothing to do with lowballing, and much more to do with the Wrath's simple superiority.

I honestly have no idea why you're citing Wrath's form mastery as a reason why he is above Grievous, when Grievous is a programmed master of all forms himself. Juyo mastery also does not mean mastery of all forms. If it does, prove it. As for Grievous' showings in TCW... good for his opponents? Guess they all beat the Wrath, then. stoned

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And while you're wondering that, you're spending a lot less time arguing your case. The effort spent on examining me has better use elsewhere, I think

Yeah, what I wondered is even more confirmed with this post. You are, indeed, a waste of time.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ The Immortal Emperor

Originally posted by ILS
Why would he have?

Most powerful opponent, standing up to the Emperor more effectively than Revan ever did according to Charles Boyd (lead writer of SWTOR).

DarthAnt66 DarthAnt66

Context matters.

JMANGO Restricted

well that's a minus one for authorial intent

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by SheGotHerOwn
I'm trying to prove a point? No, not really. You asked for reasons as to why Tyranus might win. I provided a resume of some of his accomplishments and then asked what the Wrath has to compare; in response, you decided to lowball and not post anything of substance in Wrath's favor. Remember, you're clearly the one whose mind is already made up; I'm the one who's been asking for feats and accolades to get a discussion going. That you've been unable to do so isn't my fault.

Or, you didn't know much about the Wrath, you decided to give run of the mill accolades with no showings, you got more than you bargined for, and then retreated behind insults, which I reflected back at you. Of course my mind was made up before this thread, and what I assumed to be correct largely was and still is.

Oh, and
Appreciate your efforts, but you can't troll me, bro. Good try, tho. 313

This isn't trolling just because it annoys you. Everything stated here is as serious as it could possibly be. You tried to laud Dooku as a nearly peerless duelist, when this clearly isn't the case. If this hurts you, feel free to change your position.

I did list feats, actually, but you simply deflected them. Not my problem.

"He is good at sparring," isn't a feat worth mentioning in a duel to the death, nor does it translate directly into combat. The rest is you stating accolades that everyone has, followed by, "And he did good agaisnt these people." This is not dimissal, it's simply not a showing of any sort, and even with context it often helps Dooku less than those others.

Right, remind me to not care about anything you post too. Fun game, n*gger.

And there we go again, more dismissal. Almost like you don't have any actual response to the points being made and need to find a way to casually ignore them, as opposed to proving them wrong.

Dooku has easily collapsed stone ceilings as well. Hell, he displayed utter dominance over Ventress, who has collapsed stone ceilings. Plo Koon also collapsed a cave, and so did many Force wielders below Dooku's caliber, probably. So this is completely irrelevant.

It's not a stone ceiling, it's the durasteel frame of a starship incased in the ice of Hoth that is noted to be strong enough to tear other ships apart. This is well beyond droping some marble. Showing "utter dominance over Ventress," an opponent on the level of Ahsoka at the best of times does not compare to going toe to toe with Malgus, or defeating Vitiate on Ziost, who's also collapsed "stone ceilings" such as the entire Dark Temple, I might add. You're casual defelcting on a superior showing of TK is what actual dismissal looks like, b the way.

Yes, I can play that game too.

But you'll never be able to play it as well as me. Maybe because I spend time learning about other things than just the people I support. It helps.

Still no indication of Wrath's superior Force mastery. I'll take the concession, friend.

The Wrath doesn't need superior Force mastery, nor was this point being made. He simply needs to be able to outlast Dooku in the Force, and given his defensive capabilities with Baras, who was able to convince half the Empire he embodied Vitate, against Sel-Makor using Vitiate's actual body, Sel-Makor being an intergalatic threat that posioned things around it just by existing and with a will to bound the Emperor, resisting the Dread Masters, who've warped the minds of fleets, defeating a Jedi Master so in touch with the Force that he went decades without living on anything without the Force and only became a living weapon, and content with a Revan who is noted to be more powerful than the Wrath at the time, I think the bill for defeating Dooku Force wise has been met. I'd love to see Force feats from Dooku that match any of these, let alone all.

This makes no sense. Your strawman is noted, but I never claimed Dooku to be a match for Yoda, only that he held his own. Which he did, and it's a good feat. For Mace, Dooku was almost an equal to him pre-TPM. So again, yes, this is completely relevant.

No, it's not relevant. Unless he's a match for either of these two in the Force his technical mastery means nothing. It takes more than technical skill to win in an actual fight.

This is only relevant if Wrath is physically stronger than Savage. Prove he is.

No, because Anakin, whose not even remotely as physically strong as Savage, is able to replicate these feats long before RotS. A demonstration of superior power and enough technical skill would suffice, and as you've yet to show why Dooku would overwhelm the Wrath in the Force, and the Wrath all ready being one of the most dominating opponents in the setting, I see no reason why Dooku would take the win here.

Indeed, because it's not like Dooku became... more powerful?

And it didn't make up the gap, so him being "more powerful" doesn't solve the issue.

ermm1
I honestly have no idea why you're citing Wrath's form mastery as a reason why he is above Grievous, when Grievous is a programmed master of all forms himself.

No matter how great Grievous is, he's a cyborg who can't rely on the Force to push him over the gap. The Wrath does not have his limitations.

Juyo mastery also does not mean mastery of all forms.

It does. Juyo builds off every form that comes before it, including Niman which requires a decade of study in every form before it. Even if this were not true, it's the most physically demanding of all forms and requires extensive physicals and practice. Whether Dooku also knows these techniques is irrelevant when the Wrath masters and constatly uses it and Form V, two things Dooku struggles with.

If it does, prove it. As for Grievous' showings in TCW... good for his opponents? Guess they all beat the Wrath, then. stoned

As soon as they all have feats that put them even remotely close to the Wrath, I'll gladly make this concession. As long as they contiue to have inferior showings in the exact same situations, I won't.

Yeah, what I wondered is even more confirmed with this post. You are, indeed, a waste of time.

And yet you took the time to make yourself look stupid anyway. Really makes you think.