Darth Tenebrous vs. the Outlander

Originally posted by Selenial
[B]The entire plotline of KOTET is about her literally falling into insanity.

Her movements across the galaxy are rash, unpredictable and downright retarded almost constantly. Why anyone expects her to be different in battle is beyond me.

The Outlander himself calls Vaylin's attack on Odessen 'desperate', later saying she's 'desperate to kill' him and Valkorion.
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Which I assume she wasn't desperate to do before because?
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Senya says in response to the Outlander's plan to manipulate Vaylin to the surface and kill her as 'easy', because her daughter is 'blinded by her bloodlust'.

Even in combat, she goes from a combatant who meticulously chains force attacks in lightsaber sequences, and who abuses her environment with TK, to someone who flailing hides behind a force wave so low in power that it couldn't even kill Theron Shan...

Vaylin caught her footing a step before she stumbled into the nearby flames. Enraged, she rushed her mother again, redoubling her efforts. Senya continued to feint and bait her opponent, using her own aggression against her to control the battle. She could sense her daughter's frustration mounting as the battle dragged on – her attacks became more desperate, more frenzied. Time and time again Vaylin saw what she thought was an opportunity to end the battle in a single blow, only to have it snatched away at the last instant by her elusive foe.

I'm all for believing she's a wholly superior combatant if anything actually says that, but both the conversations and her shown ability seem to prove the opposite. Vaylin has such little control over her power that she ****ing accidentally starts choking her own troops.

Before she was a combatant. Now she is the same combatant but with a lot more power. Therefore she is a superior combatant to the one that the Outlander and Arcann previously fought. It's not that hard to put two and two together. Whether you are using addition or multiplication, the answer is always four.

Also, @Neph, is there anything saying that after Chapter 9 the Outlander keeps Valkorion's power? Because before facing Vaylin the Outlander openly admits he could not win without Valk still being with him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maybe because the Outlander already fought Vaylin and was about to be killed by her superior strength? Just a thought, Sel.

Or maybe because - and this is evidently the reason, since it baits her down to Odessen - she was humiliated in front of the galaxy in chapter 5 and is doing anything to make up for that fact.

Blinded to the fact that the Outlander is now more powerful than her and she'll take the bait?

A fact she is completely unaware of, and even Arcann and Senya doubt?

This is how she's always been.

This is Vaylin just before KotET, and it may surprise you that even with all these desperate attacks, Senya still couldn't even come close to defeating Vaylin and could still be killed in an instant Force wise. And that same Force wave is strong enough to floor Arcann, something an attack that killed hundreds couldn't do, so you're continued use of lowballing is becoming pathetic.

An excerpt I'm fully aware of, and one that only reinforces my point. Vaylin has a confirmed history of suffering in battle due to her rage and frustration. When her permanent state of mind is significantly more 'desperate', 'blind', and 'reckless', her state of mind in battle is going to be exactly the same.

Before she was a combatant. Now she is the same combatant but with a lot more power. Therefore she is a superior combatant to the one that the Outlander and Arcann previously fought.

Before she was insane, and it dragged her down in battle. Now she is significantly more insane, and it will significantly drag her down in battle. Whether that offsets her power growth is not concrete at all 😬

The Outlander is talking about Vayling's conditioning, not their strength in the Force, which is a change Valkorion made to their body. What are you even talking about at this point?

You got a link? Conversation trees are hard to decipher, perhaps better context would make the quote more concrete, but as I'm reading it that's an opinion, not fact.

Originally posted by Selenial
Or maybe because - and this is evidently the reason, since it baits her down to Odessen - she was humiliated in front of the galaxy in chapter 5 and is doing anything to make up for that fact.

A fact she is completely unaware of, and even Arcann and Senya doubt?

An excerpt I'm fully aware of, and one that only reinforces my point. Vaylin has a confirmed history of suffering in battle due to her rage and frustration. When her permanent state of mind is significantly more 'desperate', 'blind', and 'reckless', her state of mind in battle is going to be exactly the same.

Before she was insane, and it dragged her down in battle. Now she is significantly more insane, and it will significantly drag her down in battle. Whether that offsets her power growth is not concrete at all 😬

You got a link? Conversation trees are hard to decipher, perhaps better context would make the quote more concrete, but as I'm reading it that's an opinion, not fact.

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/Y5G4oz6/chapter+xii:+visions+in+the+dark/

This is where Satele says the Outlander's connection the Force is strengthened, which is where their power comes from.

https://torcommunity.com/database/npc/4Bi0yfG/lana+beniko/

This is where they talk about how Valkorion saved them.

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/J4id1o4/chapter+viii:+end+times/

Is where the Outlander says Vaylin is more dangerous than ever. Because being more powerful makes you more powerful.

Now, if you want any more links to conversations to show why your asinine pedantry is wrong, feel free to ask.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
???? The Outlander, who defeated Arcann the previous most powerful Force User in the galaxy was able to defeat Arcann. The previous most powerful Force User in the galaxy. Someone who is by all accounts is one of the greatest in the galaxy even technical wise. The Outlander fought Vaylin six months later and lost. She knows how to fight.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said? For someone attempting to be so patronising about his knowledge of the storyline, you really don't seem to remember it. This is the exchange I was referring to:

Outlander: 'You lost face when I crashed your party on Zakuul, if you want to reclaim it, meet me in battle and stop acting like a child'

Vaylin: 'You'll regret this'

Valkorion: 'My daughter has taken your bait'.

The Outlander is able to walk through her attack that floored everyone else, and is the one to defeat her in the first place, no one else even being able to get close. The Outlander is now more powerful.

Indeed, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Senya calling her blinded by rage.

You have yet to show how her mindset changes, and no it does not support your point. Senya couldn't defeat Vaylin at this point is what we're going for. And for someone aware of oh so many things, you sound like someone who has no idea what they're talking about.

Vaylin also couldn't defeat Senya due to her constant string of mistakes, due in part to her mindset. For the record, I have shown her mindset, with various character quotes from people who know her slightly better than you do.

You're entire argument is opinion and has not a source to its name. Luckily for me, I make sure everything I say is linked to something actually concrete.

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/Y5G4oz6/chapter+xii:+visions+in+the+dark/

This is where Satele says the Outlander's connection the Force is strengthened, which is where their power comes from.

Not something I denied, but cool I guess?

https://torcommunity.com/database/npc/4Bi0yfG/lana+beniko/

This is where they talk about how Valkorion saved them.

Still irrelevant, but I guess you like pasting links so I'll allow it.

https://torcommunity.com/database/mission/J4id1o4/chapter+viii:+end+times/

Is where the Outlander says Vaylin is more dangerous than ever. Because being more powerful makes you more powerful.

Yes, I'm quite sure that the only possible interpretation of 'more dangerous' has to do with combatively precise and in full control of her new power, not the fact she's arbitrarily and furiously lashing out at random spots in the galaxy, and determined to destroy everything the Outlander loves at any cost...

Now, if you want any more links to conversations to show why your asinine pedantry is wrong, feel free to ask.

I really don't want to embarass you after all the bravado, but the conversation line I was referring to was:

Arcann: 'My father was right to recognize your strength. But are you in control, or does he pull the strings?'

Outlander: 'Without Valkorion, I wouldn't have the means to defeat Vaylin.'

As I said, it's debatable 😬

So Sel is trying to establish that Vaylin is desperate and crazy and that this is different from her usual mindset of...... ???? Like you bring up her chaining Force attacks as if she wasn't doing that in the fight with Arcann, after the Outlander had just made her kneel before the dragon. In the final fight she was totally unchained and stronger than ever.

This is all a total farce, the Outlander doesn't just get lucky and hit her from a blindspot or something. When the fights over Vaylin is uninjured and on her knees as the Outlander advances on her with their weapon. By all appearances she was straight up overpowered in a duel, which is backed up when the Outlander powers through her last Force attack and kills her. That alone should be enough to end the case but Sel thinks theres some hidden meaning here. There isn't. She just lost in a fair fight.

And Valks amp is permanent. There's no take-backsies with strengthening their innate Force connection. The whole point is that Valk needs their body to be strong enough to withstand his power. Thats not something that just switches off.

We know that Valkorian strengthened his connection to the Force. I don't see why it would of been lost with Valkorians death, as their have been other cases like Plagueis where they have increased their connection to the force permanently.

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Originally posted by Selenial
Arcann: 'My father was right to recognize your strength. But are you in control, or does he pull the strings?'

Outlander: 'Without Valkorion, I wouldn't have the means to defeat Vaylin.'

As I said, it's debatable 😬

Not sure if I’m misinterpreting what you’re trying to say here, but this is so obviously referring to Vaylin’s conditioning, it hurts. This dialogue occurs during Chapter 6, where the Outlander’s only experience with Vaylin in terms of raw power is getting his ass kicked in a fight and watching Valkorion get overpowered by her...prior to Valkorion using her conditioning against her, which is the means to defeat her. Outlander even uses Vaylin’s conditioning against her in chapter 6, lol.

Unchained Vaylin is clearly a more potent combatant and threat, holistically and in practice. I thought Chapter 7 would have been enough evidence for that, where she blew up BRAIN from orbit with a thought, or where Valkorion constantly warned the Outlander that she’ll become unstoppable when she’s Unchained, and that the Outlandee may not be able to defeat her, etc.

You were misinterpreting me, but I’m glad you cleared it up. As you’d see in the original post, I was asking for clarification on the context of that quote as I was seeing it appear in a dialogue tree in Chapter 8 on Torcommunity, but not in my playthroughs. If that’s where it shows up then I’m happy dismissing it.

I’m aware Vaylin became substantially more powerful and substantially more dangerous, I don’t deny that. Blowing up BRAIN (while a debatable feat, scale wise) is one of her most impressive showings. The fact Valkorion finds the Outlander’s chances slim until seeing how reckless Vaylin is, and seeing the Outlander run rings around her strategically kind of just reinforces my points. She goes from blowing up a massive facility visibly from a far orbit to lightly cracking some stone.

You seem to think I’m trying to shit on Vaylin, but I think she’s genuinely more impressive than people are giving her credit for here. I just think she was far from peak performance on Odessen.

I'm glad you think that way. But since you have nothing that supports you outside your opinion, you might as well have thought nothing at all. Find the dialogue, any dialogue, that backs you, and I'm sure everyone here will happily agree.

Lucky I’m not - and haven’t been from the start - attempting to prove that what I’m saying is one hundred percent correct. I’m merely presenting a viable alternative narrative that is backed up by dialogue (such as ‘blinded by rage’ ‘reckless’ and ‘desperate’) and feats (accidentally choking people since she can’t control her power) that is arguably as beneficial to my cause as dialogue such as ‘more dangerous’ and ‘more powerful’ is to yours.

Neither is a one hundred percent concrete, hence the original jibe at everyone merely leaping on the latter.

Originally posted by Selenial
Lucky I’m not - and haven’t been from the start - attempting to prove that what I’m saying is one hundred percent correct. I’m merely presenting a viable alternative narrative that is backed up by dialogue (such as ‘blinded by rage’ ‘reckless’ and ‘desperate’) and feats (accidentally choking people since she can’t control her power) that is arguably as beneficial to my cause as dialogue such as ‘more dangerous’ and ‘more powerful’ is to yours.

Neither is a one hundred percent concrete, hence the original jibe at everyone merely leaping on the latter.

Originally posted by Selenial
Lucky I’m not - and haven’t been from the start - attempting to prove that what I’m saying is one hundred percent correct. I’m merely presenting a viable alternative narrative that is backed up by dialogue (such as ‘blinded by rage’ ‘reckless’ and ‘desperate’) and feats (accidentally choking people since she can’t control her power) that is arguably as beneficial to my cause as dialogue such as ‘more dangerous’ and ‘more powerful’ is to yours.

Neither is a one hundred percent concrete, hence the original jibe at everyone merely leaping on the latter.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Oh, so you are just wasting everyone's time then? Good to know.

I’d suggest if anyone’s time was wasted, the culprit was your lack of basic reading comprehension. My stance has been quite clear from the offset.

Well Sel's nonsense aside, Chained Vaylin's feats easily stack up with Tenebrous' so the Outanders defeat of the far superior version of her indicates that they take this thread.

Agreed.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Agreed.