Originally posted by abhilegendSo Monitor moving two universes into a Netherverse order to SAVE them means he's all of the sudden going to start chucking entire universes at an opponent in battle?
Certainly a possibility that Monitor just chucks a universe at Thanos.After all, he moved several at once.
C'mon, abhi... He didn't do that to AM, and their battle lasted a million years. srsly
Originally posted by Galan007
You dodged my question entirely. What FEATS does Monitor have that suggest he can resist the IG's influence, like you previously stated? Manipulating 2 universes in a weakened state certainly does NOT suggest this....And Magus demonstrated multi-universal influence with an incomplete IG(no reality gem), so yeah...
I didn't dodge your question, i answered it in the very excerpt you quoted. Moving several universes and creating a netherverse to store them (while being severely weakened) seems perfectly reasonable to justify him resisting the IG. But it seems you don't share that opinion so i guess we're better off agreeing to disagree before it gets circular.
But that aside, you didn't address the neutral setting statement. I pointed out that by putting them in a neutral setting (a single universe) you are depowering the monitor. Remeber that the monitor's "peak" is when he is powered by an infinite positive matter multiverse. So how can Thanos defeat him? Certainly "transmuting it into anti-matter" is no longer in his capability in this case.
Originally posted by Galan007
So Monitor moving two universes into a Netherverse order to SAVE them means he's all of the sudden going to start chucking entire universes at an opponent in battle?C'mon, abhi... He didn't do that to AM, and their battle lasted a million years. srsly
But I like how IG can do things it never did but Monitor can't do something he already did.
Originally posted by operator616Monitor's scope here is nigh-irrelevant due to the sheer depth of power the IG possesses within a given universe, imo.
But that aside, you didn't address the neutral setting statement. I pointed out that by putting them in a neutral setting (a single universe) you are depowering the monitor. Remeber that the monitor's "peak" is when he is powered by an infinite positive matter multiverse. So how can Thanos defeat him? Certainly "transmuting it into anti-matter" is no longer in his capability in this case.
As I mentioned earlier, what's stopping Thanos from transporting them both to a point in time where NO matter exists? What's stopping him from 'disconnecting' Monitor from his supply of positive matter? etc.
I say again, the IG has displayed vastly more 'cosmic versatility' than I have ever seen from Monitor. The Netherverse feat is his best showing BY FAR, but I fail to see how that helps him at all here..?
Originally posted by Galan007
Monitor's scope here is nigh-irrelevant due to the sheer depth of power the IG possesses within a given universe, imo.As I mentioned earlier, what's stopping Thanos from transporting them both to a point in time where NO matter exists? What's stopping him from 'disconnecting' Monitor from his supply of positive matter? etc.
I say again, the IG has displayed vastly more 'cosmic versatility' than I have ever seen from Monitor. The Netherverse feat is his best showing BY FAR, but I fail to see how that helps him at all here..?
Again, this hinges on our precise point of disagreement. Simply put, i believe that Monitor's netherverse/universe moving feats justify him having similar reality warping powers like the IG. So it's not like the monitor is going to be a sitting duck at the mercy of IG's powers.
The netherverse feat is not a destructive capability but it does put his power in perspective. For example, we know that TOAA's one feat is creating the MU and being the supreme power in marvel, so naturally we assume he would have reality warping abilities. Similar thing applies to the monitor: He can move universes, he created a netherverse, he battled AM, he is powered by infinite universes. And yet, you think a simple trick like time manipulation would work on him? Not imo, but you're free to disagree.
I cannot help but disagree simply because I have never seen Monitor use ANY esoteric abilities that are indicative of him being able to resist(let alone beat) the IG.
And you say "simple trick like time manipulation" as if traveling to the dawn of time(ie. before any matter existed) was some meager ability that Monitor could easily duplicate/counter... But given that it took the bulk of AM's power to travel to the dawn of time(AFTER he'd added the power of nearly ALL positive-matter universes to his own, mind you), I have my doubts that Monitor could just 'shrug off' the IG's time manipulation... But whatevs... /shrug
Anywho, if you'd like to disagree based on what you personally think Monitor should be capable of via your own method of power-scaling, you're more than welcome to do so. But yeah, I completely disagree.
Originally posted by Galan007
And you say "simple trick like time manipulation" as if traveling to the dawn of time(ie. before any matter existed) was some meager ability that Monitor could easily duplicate/counter... But given that it took the bulk of AM's power to travel to the dawn of time(AFTER he'd added the power of nearly ALL positive-matter universes to his own, mind you), I have my doubts that Monitor could just 'shrug off' the IG's time manipulation... But whatevs... /shrug
To address this part, here is my response from another thread where a similar point was brought up:
Originally posted by operator616
You're comparing two different time eras. In Parallax's time changing the timeline wasn't such a big deal, in COIE it was explicitly stated that changing the past is impossible. And the pre-Crisis continuity had been actually strict about this (three examples from three different pre-Crisis runs: Superman #372, Superboy #164, Legion #259). Also the time travel issues where addressed in Cosmic Boy's mini and in the booster gold series right after COIE iirc. There are only a handful examples were that rule was broken. Unlike post-Crisis.
Pre-crisis had a stricter policy (at least in the bronze age) regarding time travel than other eras. And certainly stricter than marvel's, at the time.
But if you are so adamant on the time tactic then let's just go ahead and say that immortus (who lives at the end of time) could defeat the monitor. Or better yet, classic thor too. After all, mjolnir was specifically stated to be able to go to the beginning and end of time, so how about we grant thor a win over the monitor?
If those characters were able to transport Monitor to the void of nothingness that existed before the dawn of time, then YES... He WOULD be effectively powerless there, because NO matter of any type existed.
...But are those particular characters powerful enough to act against Monitor's will/power in the first place? Probably not. Is the IG, however? Most definitely.
That's the difference.
Originally posted by Galan007
If those characters were able to transport Monitor to the void of nothingness that existed before the dawn of time, then YES... He WOULD be effectively powerless there, because NO matter of any type existed....But are those particular characters powerful enough to act against Monitor's will/power in the first place? Probably not. Is the IG, however? Most definitely.
That's the difference.
Aaaand we've come full circle because acting against monitor's will was our initial point of disagreement. I think a "peak" monitor, powered by infinite universes, definitely will be able to resist it. To each his own though.
You may think so, but given Monitor's lack of feats, there is really no premise whatsoever for your conclusion.
The IG, however, actually has an abundance of feats to back-up the touted supremacy it gleans... Even in an incomplete state.
...Hence why I can't agree with you here... And I HATE arguing for the IG. ermm
Originally posted by Galan007👆 ... and 😂 at people limiting the Thanos/IG to one universe when incomplete IG/Magus existed simultaneously across universeS, and merged TWO entire universeS from over 100 universeS away, and in Kavannah's Moonknight tie-ins to the IG saga the ENTIRE Multiverse exploded when merged Eternity/Infinity battled incomplete IG/Magus, then Warlock, with a thought, remade everything back to normal when he took the incomplete IG. Thanos/IG, from 616, destroyed a planet located inside the Beyond Realm which is located outside the Multiverse/Omniverse. 😎
I have argued against the IG FAR more than I've argued for it in past debates(ask Mr.M, lol.) That said, I will still give it credit where credit is due.