Rey vs. Luke (TLJ)

Started by Galan0072 pages

Originally posted by MythLord
It exists in canon.
Indeed. It is certainly not present around users 'all the time', is what I'm saying. Frankly, I don't think that has ever really been the case, but that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by MythLord
She used the Force to resist both Kylo Ren's and Snoke's attempts to TK her in the past. Sure, her shields were eventually broken(easily so by Snoke, in fact), but the point is she threw them up and thus she does have knowledge of the technique. Besides, this she also didn't exactly have knowledge of either TP or offensive TK use before she used them; most Force powers aren't learned, they come naturally.
Those instances are wholly different than Rey manifesting a shield around herself during a battle to block external TK-usage from her opponents. Moreover, attempting to shield herself from Kylo and Snoke does not at all suggest that Rey had external shielding in place when she sparred with Luke.

Seems like you're imposing one heck of a no-limits fallacy here.

Originally posted by MythLord
I think we're at a disagreement of what "own" means, I suppose. Just sending her flying back doesn't equate owning to me.
Personally, I think someone can be "owned" by an attack without getting beaten outright by it. Either way, at least you understand what I'm saying now. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
Those instances are wholly different than Rey manifesting a shield around herself during a battle to block external TK-usage from her opponents.

I mean, they were using TK on her and she still threw up a shield, I'd say that means she can manifest a way to defend herself from an external TK attack.
Originally posted by Galan007
Moreover, attempting to shield herself from Kylo and Snoke does not at all suggest that Rey had external shielding in place when she sparred with Luke.

Seems like you're imposing one heck of a no-limits fallacy here.


I'm not 100% guarenteeing she does have it here, just that she could throw it up.
Originally posted by Galan007
Personally, I think someone can be "owned" by an attack without getting beaten outright by it. Either way, at least you understand what I'm saying now. 👆

Ah, kk. A difference in definition then, I suppose.

Perhaps Rey *might* have the wherewithal to try and shield herself after Luke initially TK'd her... Maybe.

But again: my point is that she was certainly never implied to have a shield up in that particular scene, which would undoubtedly make her vulnerable to a TK wave. 👆

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
There is no "sphere" of energy or any kind of barrier or a cocoon protecting force users all the time.

This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Unless I am missing an example or two, no force user depicted *in PT era, or post PT era material,* be it legends or canon has repelled a force attack without actively gesturing to counter it. And even if there is an example or two, the vast majority of cases don't have any such thing.

--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
[b]--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way. [/B]

Oh nice, I did recall there was some kind of passive Force thing, but I couldn't recall the source.

Luke ragdolls. Dumb thread.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is incorrect--

His statement wasn't entirely factual, but it was close enough to the truth. One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.

It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel.
[b]--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

--and this caveat is absolutely irrelevant to that fact. Even then, examples do exist, by the way. [/B]

Firstly, I don't know what shield you are talking about here( there are cases of temperature moderation cocoons), so I am just going to assume that you are talking about a sphere of energy that is a full representation of the force user's complete defenses applicable in combat. If not, ignore the rest.

Hence why I specifically mentioned the PT era material. And by post PT era, I meant the dark times, not NJO.

Plus, its obvious the way Karpyshyn treats force based defenses is vastly different to how the PT era material treats it, be it legends or canon, so no, we can't equate the two.

Like I said, you might be able to find an example or two, because I obviously haven't read all the material even in the PT era, and even if I did, I can't really recall every single instance, or event to check if this concept really was used, but yeah, force based defenses work, in the vast majority of the cases, with active gesture based counters, not spheres of energy.

Not really. It's about as far from irrelevant as can be. The vast majority of the PT era material which is Legends adheres to and tries to set the standards for power and force usage the way George Lucas did in his movies. That is, without any overtly extravagant or flamboyant usage of the force, like we see in for example, ToR or ToTJ. The movies( and the TV shows) make it pretty obvious that there aren't "shields" protecting force users all the time. The novelizations, which are legends accounts all but confirm it( ROTS junior novel comes primarily to mind).

In fact, it is as relevant as can be, because not all legends sources are the same or see the SW galaxy in the same way. Even in the PT era material, which is why, in one instance, you have the entire Jedi Council needed to hold up a turbolift. And in the other instance you have padawans holding up capital ships. Both legends sources. However, the PT era Legends material has always been highly consistent in this one thing. Which is why Karpyshyn's view on the matter, who wrote the Bane trilogy similar to how he writes games, and in the same vein as practically most of the material on the Ancient eras with all of their visible flamboyance, does not really extend into the realm of the PT era. Even if you don't agree with this logic, the cases show for themselves.

No one is going to read all that - especially not Sasukedc - but Lesser Force barriers are passively up.

Going to say Rey. She's a force to match Kylo.

To add to the discussion, there is some evidence to suggest passive Force shields do exist in Canon. During a duel between Ventress and Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple, for example:

It seemed like an eternity before Ventress saw that the dimness of the corridors was growing brighter. Hope surged in her as she realized that they were close to the exit. The emotion made her careless; she found herself suddenly lifted and flung backward out the door.

Dark Disciple, page 190.

Asajj's carelessness results in her being TKed, implying that she left herself open to Vos' telekinesis. This also implies that during the rest of the duel, she is not open to being TKed in this manner. So while it's never outright stated that she has a Force shield in place, the implication is there.

There was also a moment in the Ahsoka novel that could be interpreted as either a TP or TK attack, which is then resisted.

She reached out for him again, this time for his hands and fingers, and the balance of weight borne by his hips and knees. She felt something awaken in her, every combat lesson Anakin had ever taught. She remembered how to stand and how to hold the blades. She pushed her opponent's fingers too far apart and overturned his balance. She remembered, and she could make him forget. He staggered back, surprised at her power over him even at arm's length, but not yet overcome.

"I have a sense for power," he said. "And you do not have enough to resist me for much longer, weaponless as you are."

Couple these snippets with a few scenes from The Clone Wars, and it becomes clear that Force users have some means of resisting the Force-based attacks of others, even if it's not quite as potent or as fully explained as it was in Legends.

I still haven't read the TLJ novelization, so I can't comment on whether or not Rey had a Force shield in it. However, I feel it's safe to assume that even if Rey did have a Force shield up, Luke would have no more trouble ripping through it than Snoke did.

I don't exactly agree with your interpretation of those excerpts, but that's neither here nor there. Like you said, passive 'auto-shields' are certainly not an ability that has been extrapolated on very much at all in canon... Legends is another matter entirely, but this isn't a Legends thread.

That said, it was never implied(in the film or novelization) that Rey had any sort of passive shielding in place when she sparred with Luke:

Luke kept walking--and so Rey snatched up her staff, took three long strides, and swung it flat and hard, cracking him across the back of the head and knocking him to the ground. He stared up into the rain, surprised, at the young woman standing over him with her teeth bared. "Did you do it?" Rey asked. "Did you create Kylo Ren?" Luke got to his feet and Rey saw immediately that nothing had changed--he was still going to walk away from her, retreating to brood in silence.

Furious, she swung her staff at him again--but Luke reached out, the motion a blur, and a length of lightning rod flew off the roof of one of the huts. Before Rey could blink he had intercepted the strike of her staff, the impact sending a jolt up her forearms, and knocked her backward. Rey sprang back at him, her staff and his improvised weapon spinning and colliding as the rain poured down. She pressed the attack. The staff had never felt more comfortable in her hands, so much like a part of her. Her confidence grew and she smiled wolfishly as she saw the surprise on his face. But it was a fleeting thing. Quicker than she could follow, he parried her thrust and continued the motion, flipping the staff out of her hands to clatter on the stones, leaving her defenseless.

Rey reached out, feeling the Force alive and hungry around her, and found the weight of the lightsaber in her hands. She ignited it and Luke gave ground, looking up at her as she held the blade high, rain hissing and sparking off its length. They looked at each other for a long moment, and then Rey turned the lightsaber off, leaving them in the rain. "Tell me the truth," she said...

-TLJ

Thus, if Luke were to TK Rey at this moment:

She would be totally unguarded and completely at his mercy, me thinks.

Originally posted by Galan007
Perhaps Rey *might* have the wherewithal to try and shield herself after Luke initially TK'd her... Maybe.

But again: my point is that she was certainly never implied to have a shield up in that particular scene, which would undoubtedly make her vulnerable to a TK wave. 👆


I can agree to that, I just believe it's possible for her to throw it up.