Sidious' saber skills

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And, yet he loses in lightsabre combat against a newbie Dark Empire Luke Skywalker on his flagship who barely defeated Vader because Vader was holding back.
Bruce Lee was a popular example.
Main point was that one who is faster than another doesn't prove they have superior combat skills.

Palpatine:
-loses against Windu
-barely competes with Yoda
-loses against Luke

Heck, even in TFU - when you encounter Palpatine - he is only making use of his Force abilities.

It's a stupid point though. You can't divorce the concepts and you won't even pretend to address it in examples like Yoda. The reason you're taking away his skill against Maul and Savage is exactly the reason to attribute to his skill against a faster opponent in Yoda. But you hate Sidious so much you can't even form a coherent thought or argument.
If Sidious is only skilled because of his speed (which he isn't), then that's a part of his dueling skill. Unless you want to argue he's a 9 in dueling in pure skill and that isn't accounting for his overwhelming speed... well, that leads to a very slippery slope for you I can imagine.

Heavily amped Windu who is in no way a bad feat. He also killed 3 Jedi Masters nigh instantly too 😂
I don't get where this "barely" shit comes from. Palpatine did really well against Yoda.
And Luke is Luke.

Because he didn't need a lightsaber to fight him obviously. Though he did easily catch him trying to cheapshot him in the DS ending.
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

Sidious is a master of murder. It's only logical that he'd master every tactic/device conducive to murder.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Dark Empire was 6 years after ROTJ. Within 4 years of training he became more powerful than Vader. Imagine another 6.
They even remarked on how powerful both became. And he beat Luke in the first lightsaber fight as well.

It's a stupid point though. You can't divorce the concepts and you won't even pretend to address it in examples like Yoda. The reason you're taking away his skill against Maul and Savage is exactly the reason to attribute to his skill against a faster opponent in Yoda. But you hate Sidious so much you can't even form a coherent thought or argument.
If Sidious is only skilled because of his speed (which he isn't), then that's a part of his dueling skill. Unless you want to argue he's a 9 in dueling in pure skill and that isn't accounting for his overwhelming speed... well, that leads to a very slippery slope for you I can imagine.

Heavily amped Windu who is in no way a bad feat. He also killed 3 Jedi Masters nigh instantly too 😂
I don't get where this "barely" shit comes from. Palpatine did really well against Yoda.
And Luke is Luke.

Because he didn't need a lightsaber to fight him obviously. Though he did easily catch him trying to cheapshot him in the DS ending.
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

1. Umm - what did Luke do to become more powerful? I hope you do realize that makes reference to his 'disciplined' personna. He is no longer the rookiee he once used to be. Now he understands more about the Force's nature and the tenets of the Jedi philosophy. It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?

3. He killed those 3 JMs because he was faster. Further proving my point.

4. Marek didn't bring down the Star Destroyer. He merely re-directed a fallen one - and it severely exhausted him.
And parrying one lightsabre strike doesn't necessarily mean he is a godly lightsabre duelist.

Apparently - you can't understand we are talking about his martial arts skills and not his power in the Force.

5. It's a fact that during the PT - the Jedi's ability to use the Force was massively hindered.

I am not denying his massive power in the Force. But he wins every duel with a lightsabre because of his superior Force power which greatly enhances his combat skills against enemies less powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. Umm - what did Luke do to become more powerful? I hope you do realize that makes reference to his 'disciplined' personna. He is no longer the rookiee he once used to be. Now he understands more about the Force's nature and the tenets of the Jedi philosophy. It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?

3. He killed those 3 JMs because he was faster. Further proving my point.

4. Marek didn't bring down the Star Destroyer. He merely re-directed a fallen one - and it severely exhausted him.
And parrying one lightsabre strike doesn't necessarily mean he is a godly lightsabre duelist.

Apparently - you can't understand we are talking about his martial arts skills and not his power in the Force.

5. It's a fact that during the PT - the Jedi's ability to use the Force was massively hindered.

I am not denying his massive power in the Force. But he wins every duel with a lightsabre because of his superior Force power which greatly enhances his combat skills against enemies less powerful in the Force.

In Dark Empire 😂
Specifically issue 5. If you're going to bring up the series, at least have the foggiest idea of what went on in it.

Which is a skill that he uses in his lightsaber dueling. Why you would even respond to me without addressing that you can't take his speed away in a duel is perplexing. What's next, Obi Wan isn't good because his form is nigh impregnable? Anakin was actually shit when he entered his zone because you have to take that away from him? Mace sucks because of Vapaad amping him (which you have no problem bringing up against Sheev yet his speed that he used against Mace and everyone else is an issue, not the one off amp for Mace).

He did though. Again you speak of things you have no understanding on at all.
YouTube video

I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.

I am fully aware we're talking about MA skills. The issue is is that you're bringing up feats from TFU when that game made him tank the entirety of Starkiller's power point blank. Then you're going to go into another thread and go "Sidious is much more of a political lord than a force user. Heck he probably doesn't even have good feats." Because you have a very worm like personality. You will use anything at all to try and downplay the character even when you hold nothing in your hands. You have nothing, only a vague understanding of the events that transpired and you grasp at anything to try and convince yourself of it.
You're like a Diet Carver. Both in attempt and logic.

Prove they were hindered in a way that effected their combat ability. You keep saying it, and I keep asking. If I haven't dealt with so many Freedon Nadds on the forums I'd assume you were trolling, but that'd be giving you the benefit of the doubt and you'd probably twist the meaning of that too.

So he uses his force power to influence his dueling skills? How unlike force users
Let's take a look at what Galan posted here on Yoda's form in Ataru (because I'm too lazy to find another)

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes.

-Star Wars: AEYNTK

There's also this if you regard it as canon:
https://i.imgur.com/q78Ge1Y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lzow3kG.jpg
-TCW #6.5

I don't even indulge in that many Star Wars things. How are you wrong at every stage here? 😂

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Did you even read Dark Empire? They were in the midst of a Civil War and it was after the events of Thrawn as well.
And it doesn't matter how many wars he fought in even if he didn't. He had 6 years to get more powerful. Seriously, the first issue goes in depth of the events of the galaxy, Luke's power increase, and even has Luke blocking an AT-AT blaster bolt pretty easily and destroying it.

In Dark Empire 😂
Specifically issue 5. If you're going to bring up the series, at least have the foggiest idea of what went on in it.

Which is a skill that he uses in his lightsaber dueling. Why you would even respond to me without addressing that you can't take his speed away in a duel is perplexing. What's next, Obi Wan isn't good because his form is nigh impregnable? Anakin was actually shit when he entered his zone because you have to take that away from him? Mace sucks because of Vapaad amping him (which you have no problem bringing up against Sheev yet his speed that he used against Mace and everyone else is an issue, not the one off amp for Mace).

He did though. Again you speak of things you have no understanding on at all.
YouTube video

I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.

I am fully aware we're talking about MA skills. The issue is is that you're bringing up feats from TFU when that game made him tank the entirety of Starkiller's power point blank. Then you're going to go into another thread and go "Sidious is much more of a political lord than a force user. Heck he probably doesn't even have good feats." Because you have a very worm like personality. You will use anything at all to try and downplay the character even when you hold nothing in your hands. You have nothing, only a vague understanding of the events that transpired and you grasp at anything to try and convince yourself of it.
You're like a Diet Carver. Both in attempt and logic.

Prove they were hindered in a way that effected their combat ability. You keep saying it, and I keep asking. If I haven't dealt with so many Freedon Nadds on the forums I'd assume you were trolling, but that'd be giving you the benefit of the doubt and you'd probably twist the meaning of that too.

So he uses his force power to influence his dueling skills? How unlike force users
Let's take a look at what Galan posted here on Yoda's form in Ataru (because I'm too lazy to find another)

I don't even indulge in that many Star Wars things. How are you wrong at every stage here? 😂

Did you even read Dark Empire? They were in the midst of a Civil War and it was after the events of Thrawn as well.

I am fully aware it is six years after Heir to the Empire.

Also, you do realize that when I was talking about combat experience I was referring to facing opponents in lightsabre combat - not slaying droids or thugs?

ASFAIK - pre-Dark Empire Luke Skywalker's (solo)duels were only with Teneniel Djo and Lumiya. And in both instances - he always got owned by these two. It was until he got familiar with Lumiya's 'lightsabre' combat style that he finally managed to slay her.

And it doesn't matter how many wars he fought in even if he didn't.

Yes - it does matter?

He had 6 years to get more powerful. Seriously, the first issue goes in depth of the events of the galaxy, Luke's power increase, and even has Luke blocking an AT-AT blaster bolt pretty easily and destroying it.

Yes - that was referring to his Force mastery - which has nothing to do with his lightsabre skills.
IIRC, and I do, Luke was never trained in the art of lightsabre combat - neither by Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda.

In Dark Empire 😂
Specifically issue 5. If you're going to bring up the series, at least have the foggiest idea of what went on in it.

Of course I do know. It's the Duel on Byss where Luke confronts Palpatine in combat and then Palpatine inhabits a new body and 'defeats' Luke.
It's no wonder - though. Byss is a Dark Side nexus and Luke's light side abilities were massively hindered. More props to Luke for resisting for a while to fight Palpatine on one of the most powerful Dark Side nexi. 😂

Of course, when I said that Luke owned Palpatine I was talking about the 6th issue during the Battle of Pinnacle Base.
And in both instances - Byss and the Eclipse - which are two Dark Side Nexi - Palpatine received a power boost and Luke's abilities were hindered.
Unlike the Duel on Byss - Leia used the Force and amped up Luke until he and Palpatine reached the same level of speed. And in that outcome - Luke legitimately owned Palpatine. A Luke who only owned Lumiya after many fights getting used to her combat style. And yet it took him only one duel to take him out. Remember that, unlike Lumiya's case - Luke was not familiar with Palpatine's unorthodox fighting style.

Why you would even respond to me without addressing that you can't take his speed away in a duel is perplexing.

It is not perplexing. One is not a great or G.O.A.T in combat arts if his use of the Force clearly is greater than that of his enemies. Superior speed does not translate to superior skill.
When Palpatine was on equal foot - he lost in lightsabre combat:
1. Windu
2. Yoda
3. DE Luke

What's next, Obi Wan isn't good because his form is nigh impregnable?

The lightsabre form is one and the practitioner is another. Don't mix them up.

Anakin was actually shit when he entered his zone because you have to take that away from him?[.QUOTE]

Both Anakin and Obi-Wan know each other styles. It wasn't a 'lightsabre defeat' that defeated Anakin - it was him jumping when Obi-Wan had the high ground. They were even.

[QUOTE]Mace sucks because of Vapaad amping him (which you have no problem bringing up against Sheev yet his speed that he used against Mace and everyone else is an issue, not the one off amp for Mace)

Good job. You just proved that both were at the same speed - and Windu owned him.
It doesn't matter who amped who. All that matter is that on equal ground - Palpatine got stomped in lightsabre combat. Simple as that. 😆

He did though. Again you speak of things you have no understanding on at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nJ-B7xTAyo

You must have misunderstood my point.
Galen has directed that Star Destroyer only in the game, but per the novel and comics - he merely re-directed a fallen Star Destroyer.

But still not seeing your point.

[UOTE]I never said blocking one strike made him a dueling God. I said he used it once in the Dark Side ending because he didn't need it for the actual fight.[/QUOTE]

He needs it in case someone wants to strike him face-to-face? 😕

I am fully aware we're talking about MA skills. The issue is is that you're bringing up feats from TFU when that game made him tank the entirety of Starkiller's power point blank.

It was you who brought up the argument of the video-game, not me. 😆

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

When I said TFU - I was talking about the novel.
But that's not the only duel: Savage Oppress and Darth Maul lightbulbs you up?

Then you're going to go into another thread and go "Sidious is much more of a political lord than a force user. Heck he probably doesn't even have good feats."

Actually, if you even bothered to look me up. I made that thread due to Palpatine's hype. Main point was that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype(in comparison to the powerhouses of the Old Republic) might be due to his mlitary+political power - and rightfully so.

Because you have a very worm like personality. You will use anything at all to try and downplay the character even when you hold nothing in your hands. You have nothing, only a vague understanding of the events that transpired and you grasp at anything to try and convince yourself of it.
You're like a Diet Carver. Both in attempt and logic.

Uh, yes. I do. Keep claiming stuff. 😂 😆

Apparently, if you go back and read the posts - you are the one who is having that problem. Your inability to understand that superior speed doesn't translate to superior skill. 😄

Prove they were hindered in a way that effected their combat ability. You keep saying it, and I keep asking. If I haven't dealt with so many Freedon Nadds on the forums I'd assume you were trolling, but that'd be giving you the benefit of the doubt and you'd probably twist the meaning of that too.

Windu: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished
Yoda: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.
(src: Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones)

[QUOTE]"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. (...) On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."
-Darth Plagueis novel

Not to mention the events depicted in Sithisis where he further hinders the Jedi's ability to use the Force.

So he uses his force power to influence his dueling skills? How unlike force users

lol What? 😂

You do realize that when I said that I actually made reference to Palpatine's use of the Dark Side hindering the Jedi's ability to use the Force?

It has nothing to do with their lightsabre skills alone.

My point was that their ability to draw power from the Force was massively diminished and they could not fully access their great Force reserves to keep up with Palpatine's speed.
Hence Palpatine was a 'greater' lightsabre duelist than these guys.

Nadd actually making an argument for once rather than trolling? This can't be.

Because, as I said, you don't follow me on KMC or CV. 😂

I told you this before:
I only troll when I feel something is stupid.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I am fully aware it is six years after Heir to the Empire.

Also, you do realize that when I was talking about combat experience I was referring to facing opponents in lightsabre combat - not slaying droids or thugs?

ASFAIK - pre-Dark Empire Luke Skywalker's (solo)duels were only with Teneniel Djo and Lumiya. And in both instances - he always got owned by these two. It was until he got familiar with Lumiya's 'lightsabre' combat style that he finally managed to slay her.

You were not in any capacity aware that it was 6 years afterwards. In fact your entire post is a backtrack.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
And, yet he loses in lightsabre combat against a newbie Dark Empire Luke Skywalker on his flagship who barely defeated Vader because Vader was holding back.

Also, no you weren't.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It's not like he fought in countless wars to gain a vast amount of combat experience(during Dark Empire events)

The Lumiya fights were from a war. There were a bunch of battles (and by battles I mean a series of battles where thousands die) where he used his lightsaber. He beat a few Nightsisters in the Djo arc as well.
He also trained that quitter, and Leia.

He fought Flint, Nick Rostu, Luuke in addition. He also was honing his skills with Mara. He also beat Lumiya in almost an immediate rematch too.

And you're literally explaining experience and Luke getting better as a reason for why he defeated Lumiya. He could have lost 100 times in lightsaber duels, but as long as he came back and won that 101st duel he is getting better at dueling. Again, not a complicated issue. And he used these characters as a springboard to be able to fight Sidious. Just like how he used everything prior to the Vader fight to help him beat him. That's how experience works. That's what getting better means.

And not to mention his solo training as well. What is that, 5 and a half years of training to get better?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yes - it does matter?

This is your argument. Luke owned Palpatine. Also your words.

This argument would lead us to believe that Luke is a better duelist than Yoda and Mace without any formal "lightsabre" training.

Luke was the only one out of the three to maim Palpatine severely, and he did it against a heavily amped Palpatine and he did it only because his speed was equalized. Again, your words.

So no, his experience doesn't matter. All Mace and Yoda could do was disarm Palpatine after a hard fought fight while Luke cut his hand right off.

Luke is a prodigy. All that matters is what he can do, not his experience dueling all the time. It took him 4 years to beat Vader who has some of the most combat experience in the series. It took him 10 years to be more skilled then someone who can do extremely well in pure skill against the two best duelists in Jedi history.

Luke should be nowhere near what he is is the point. Yet, we know by DE that Luke was more skilled than ever with a saber, so that's why his combat experience doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Yes - that was referring to his Force mastery - which has nothing to do with his lightsabre skills.
IIRC, and I do, Luke was never trained in the art of lightsabre combat - neither by Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda.

https://imgur.com/KqTTlgq

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course I do know. It's the Duel on Byss where Luke confronts Palpatine in combat and then Palpatine inhabits a new body and 'defeats' Luke.
It's no wonder - though. Byss is a Dark Side nexus and Luke's light side abilities were massively hindered. More props to Luke for resisting for a while to fight Palpatine on one of the most powerful Dark Side nexi. 😂

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
2. When did Palpatine beat Luke in lightsabre combat in Dark Empire?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Of course, when I said that Luke owned Palpatine I was talking about the 6th issue during the Battle of Pinnacle Base.
And in both instances - Byss and the Eclipse - which are two Dark Side Nexi - Palpatine received a power boost and Luke's abilities were hindered.
Unlike the Duel on Byss - Leia used the Force and amped up Luke until he and Palpatine reached the same level of speed. And in that outcome - Luke legitimately owned Palpatine. A Luke who only owned Lumiya after many fights getting used to her combat style. And yet it took him only one duel to take him out. Remember that, unlike Lumiya's case - Luke was not familiar with Palpatine's unorthodox fighting style.

I wouldn't exactly say his Star Destroyer is a massive Dark Side Nexus either, but then again, I don't care.

She had a ****ing lightwhip... and that was their second fight. In contrast, Palpatine was using a lightsaber...

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It is not perplexing. One is not a great or G.O.A.T in combat arts if his use of the Force clearly is greater than that of his enemies. Superior speed does not translate to superior skill.
When Palpatine was on equal foot - he lost in lightsabre combat:
1. Windu
2. Yoda
3. DE Luke

Equal footing. Windu was amped farther than he has ever been amped before.

Yoda literally had an advantage with the podium, and his lightsaber style also has him amping his speed with the force.

And Luke you yourself admitted had his speed amped.

2 of the 3 required in your own words speed amps to contend with Palpatine's natural boosts of speed with his lightsaber style. Again, it'd be like trying to take away Yoda's boosts and trying to pretend he's a shitty duelist because of it. Both Yoda and Palpatine amp their speed, and both of them are tier 9 duelists. They are either at that level because of their skill alone, or they're at that level because of their speed and skill.

If it's skill alone it means Palpatine is a tier 9 in skill and can further amp his speed to compliment it.

To go the opposite way, it'd be like slowing down their speed to normal human levels and assuming they can still compete with Shaak Ti. The speed is part of the reason they're so skilled. Because they can combine their speed with their skill in the saber.

It is perplexing, because you still can't take his speed away. You're trying to separate them when you literally cannot, and deciding that only arbitrary rules that follow only your guidelines count as an application of skill. It is again, no different than me just going around whining about Yoda's speed and how it isn't skill.

For an actual real world example, Mike Tyson is regarded as skilled as he was largely because of his speed. The speed his hip extended was ridiculous. The speed in which he could dodge and strike as well. Roy Jones Jr is regarded as easily top 10 of the most skilled boxers of all time in his prime because of his speed. Ali as well made extreme use of his speed of his jab and footwork. Floyd's counters and defense are speed. Pacman's offense is ridiculous.

No one would say these fighters aren't skilled because they abuse their speed... actually:

Look how unskilled they are because they are abusing something their opponents lack!

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
The lightsabre form is one and the practitioner is another. Don't mix them up.

That's how ridiculous this is. If everyone could boost their speed to Palpatine's level and be able to compete with Yoda, they would.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Good job. You just proved that both were at the same speed - and Windu owned him.
It doesn't matter who amped who. All that matter is that on equal ground - Palpatine got stomped in lightsabre combat. Simple as that. 😆

I have no issue counting Mace's performance against Sheev. What I find odd is someone being a huge hypocrite whining about an innate ability being unfair and not an application of skill, and therefore it doesn't count.

Mace came out on top against Sheev. I agree. Mace however needed a huge amp to do it. Which much like Vapaad actually loops back into Sheev to show how good he actually is.

Sheev can use his speed against everyone. Mace can only use that level of power against Sheev. That is the difference. This is completely nonsensical.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You must have misunderstood my point.
Galen has directed that Star Destroyer only in the game, but per the novel and comics - he merely re-directed a fallen Star Destroyer.

But still not seeing your point.

Also again, you were using the game

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Heck, even in TFU - when you encounter Palpatine - he is only making use of his Force abilities.

That's a first person perspective only accomplished from you the player fighting Palpatine. Grab some dignity and own up to one of these things at least in your rebuttal. Almost every post you made in this thread has been an embarrassing backtrack.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Both Anakin and Obi-Wan know each other styles. It wasn't a 'lightsabre defeat' that defeated Anakin - it was him jumping when Obi-Wan had the high ground. They were even.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
He needs it in case someone wants to strike him face-to-face? 😕

The fact that he didn't use it doesn't show evidence of his lack of saber skills, it shows he didn't even need to use it against someone with a saber. That's it. It'd be like claiming his force powers were insufficient against Kit Fisto because he only used his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It was you who brought up the argument of the video-game, not me. 😆

When I said TFU - I was talking about the novel.
But that's not the only duel: Savage Oppress and Darth Maul lightbulbs you up?

No, you actually did bring it up.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Heck, even in TFU - when you encounter Palpatine - he is only making use of his Force abilities.

I mean, you brag about how you only debate when you're not trolling... but this is absolutely awful. I have never in my life encountered someone who backtracked this much. You should not have admitted you weren't trolling.

Well, no for reasons already stated, but also because you previously responded to me mentioning the DS ending and said nothing of it. I was unaware the novel and comics had a DS ending.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because he didn't need a lightsaber to fight him obviously. Though he did easily catch him trying to cheapshot him in the DS ending.
Though not sure you want to bring up TFU. Sure you think it helps you here, but I'm sure you'd hate it being brought up in another thread. Palpatine tanks an all out force release from someone who could bring down a Star Destroyer at lesser levels? And him not using his lightsaber is the bad looking part?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
4. Marek didn't bring down the Star Destroyer. He merely re-directed a fallen one - and it severely exhausted him.
And parrying one lightsabre strike doesn't necessarily mean he is a godly lightsabre duelist.

Here's what I think happened, I think you only saw this video.
YouTube video

And then once you saw the video I posted you realized that wasn't the full story, so you backtracked to mean the comic/novel. I question what happened in the novel because I haven't seen it, but in the comic he still overloaded the cannon to destroy the faculty and send the Star Destroyer hurtling down/redirected it where he wanted it/slowed it down. Which is still a tremendous feat. Sidious tanked a full power attack from this being. From a media you brought up. You will then conveniently forget you brought something up from this series and go right back to downplaying Sheev at every turn. If I made a star destroyer thread within a week, I can almost guarantee you'd be in that thread talking about how bad the Sheev wank is. Just like every thread.

Also, Maul/Savage was a good feat on Sheev's behalf. You'd have to be very ignorant to claim it didn't show his skill.

"But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed."

Because again, that is his lightsaber style. And he was precise enough to never go off the intended target by more than a millimeter. If that isn't skill, I don't know what is. You can't even toss out a point without backtracking. Now imagine someone never straying from their intended aim more than a millimeter.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Actually, if you even bothered to look me up. I made that thread due to Palpatine's hype. Main point was that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype(in comparison to the powerhouses of the Old Republic) might be due to his mlitary+political power - and rightfully so.

It's all one sad attempt to downplay him. I understand you don't like his hype, but trying to combine a Lion King puzzle with a Jungle Book puzzle simply won't work. You don't go about your hate in a way that would lead others to see it your way. You just jam things where it doesn't belong. Sheev is only called the most powerful Sith because he has a lot of political pull. Sheev's own speed is the reason he can stomp others in lightsabers... nothing to do with skill. Shit like that.

Am I supposed to believe from your words that Kit Fisto is possibly on Sheev's level just because Sheev abused his own lightsaber style? Like really, how could you possibly correlate this?

Sheev vs Kit Fisto but you can't use anything from Sheev being faster than his opponents including Fisto? Maul vs Sheev but Sheev is just as fast as Maul. Don't use any fights where Sheev outskills Maul because it might be speed?

Your lowballing leads to nonsense and extreme handouts.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Uh, yes. I do. Keep claiming stuff. 😂 😆

Apparently, if you go back and read the posts - you are the one who is having that problem. Your inability to understand that superior speed doesn't translate to superior skill. 😄

And again, are ignoring the existence of Yoda. Someone who relies heavily on his speed. Apparently this guideline only applies to Sheev.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Not to mention the events depicted in Sithisis where he further hinders the Jedi's ability to use the Force.

You should really use the full quote.

Obi-Wan: [on hologram, from Kamino] I have successfully made contact with the Prime Minister of Kamino. They are using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army. I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we're looking for.
Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive!
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. They say that a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
Mace: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.
Yoda: Into custody, take this Jango Fett. Bring him here. Question him, we will.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. I will report back if and when I have him. [hologram fades]
Yoda: Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see.
Mace: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.

The Dark Cloud around the Jedi was only attributed to stopping them from seeing events unfold. It was clouding their connection to the force and stopping them from seeing things like the creation of the Clone Army. It was allowing the Sith Lord to rise to power when they didn't have the clarity to put a halt to things that would have stopped this.

Not once to my knowledge was it ever said to diminish their combat abilities. All it did was stop them from seeing events that the audience would go "Hey, why didn't you stop that you idiot?"

Not to mention Mace got more powerful than he ever has against Sidious with this "diminished" capacity. Hell, Yoda was the most powerful Jedi to ever fight the Dark Side at that point in time

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

Which really seems to imply he's at his most powerful come ROTS which would indicate the "weakening" really did nothing.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
lol What? 😂

You do realize that when I said that I actually made reference to Palpatine's use of the Dark Side hindering the Jedi's ability to use the Force?

It has nothing to do with their lightsabre skills alone.

My point was that their ability to draw power from the Force was massively diminished and they could not fully access their great Force reserves to keep up with Palpatine's speed.
Hence Palpatine was a 'greater' lightsabre duelist than these guys.

And yes, I realize if we assume Sidious weakened the force it would have nothing to do with his lightsaber skills. My point is that you're going to say that Sidious weakened the entire Jedi Order here to suit your needs, and then somewhere down the line you're going to weasel out of this claim and play stupid, and likely even argue against it. I'd go get the quote from Tarkin to explain it, but you yourself claiming Sidious weakened them is delicious. Tell me how overhyped Sidious is though and how he's mostly political power when you're in here stating that Palpatine was cutting off the entire Jedi Order from the Force and it weakened them in combat.
Grab some sense.

Yoda was the equal to Palpatine in the Force.

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.

Which means that even if we assume Yoda couldn't draw on his full reserves because his vision was clouded, he could still draw on as much of the force as Sidious.

Meh. Likely won't reply to you. This is stupid.

Way to go, Mob. You're slaying tonight.

now if only we could get Nadd to regret how thoroughly he got his ass kicked.

Nah. He ain't slaying anything. I will reply when I have free time.

yes, replying now was not free time

You were not in any capacity aware that it was 6 years afterwards. In fact your entire post is a backtrack.

You said Dark Empire is six years after Heir to Empire?
Didn't I say the same thing?

[QUOTE/Also, no you weren't.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the post. I sadly pressed enter. And I have to re-write it all over again. I cannot delete it apparently.

The Lumiya fights were from a war. There were a bunch of battles (and by battles I mean a series of battles where thousands die) where he used his lightsaber. He beat a few Nightsisters in the Djo arc as well.
He also trained that quitter, and Leia.

Tell me the feats of these Nightsisters since you brought them up?
So - what if he trained Leia? Your point being?

Luke was 'canonically' the 'new' Jedi. It makes sense he would train her since he knows a lot more than her.

He fought Flint, Nick Rostu, Luuke in addition. He also was honing his skills with Mara. He also beat Lumiya in almost an immediate rematch too.

Flint:
- he fought Flint just once. They were equally matched.

-in fact, Flint at his own turn fought Lumiya and he was bested by her.
She later took him as her apprentice. In fact, Flint has no noticeable skills. Heck, he had no combat skills before joining the Sith; he much admits so.

"All I ever wanted, my whole life, was to become a Jedi Knight, and you…you—! I went to you, I wanted training. You didn’t just spurn me, I was beneath your notice."
―Flint to Luke

-his Sith training wasn't from start to beginning - he was first a stormtrooper. Only after some time - Vader deemed him ready to train him. And then Vader had in mind to put Lumiya against Flint - but by the time that happened - Vader died. It makes sense as to why Lumiya bested Flint in their duel. Flint didn't have as much training as Lumiya did.

Nick Rostu:

-when Luke fought Nick Rostu - he was actually being mind-controlled by Shadowspawn through the Shadow Crown. So, it was Shadowspawn who fought Luke and not Nick Rostu. And, Shadowspawn has no noticeable lightsabre skills

Luuke:

-you seem to forget that Luke and Luuke were actually equal?
And Luke also had help from Jade. In fact, it was Jade who finished off Luuke, and not Luke.

Lumiya:

-we have been through this already. He managed to defeat her, in their last battle, because he got familiar with her fighting style.

So, recap:
-Flint was barely a good lightsabre combatant compared to likes like Vader and Lumiya. And, yet, he managed to equal Luke in lightsabre combat. This shows that both of them were still newbies. Unless you want to say that Flint was a great swordsman fighter which I will find it stupid since he had lost against Lumiya.
-Nick Rostu was mind-controlled by Shadowspawn - who is barely a lightsabre combatant
-Lumiya's defeat came due to Luke getting more and more familiar with her 'lightsabre' form

He also was honing his skills with Mara.

You mean fighting her or training with her?

If you mean the latter - I am curious just how much would that increase Luke's lightsabre skills?
Because, AAIR, Luke never trained with her for a life time.

And you're literally explaining experience and Luke getting better as a reason for why he defeated Lumiya. He could have lost 100 times in lightsaber duels, but as long as he came back and won that 101st duel he is getting better at dueling.

How does that translate to Luke getting better in lightsabre combat? Just because he is getting familiar with Lumiya's fighting style - that does not mean he is better at lightsabering everyone.

If he was that good as you imply - he should have owned Lumiya the moment he faced her.

You apparently cannot understand that there were outside factors which facilitated Luke's victory.
Look at Windu and Palpatine for example.
Windu never fought Palpatine before. And, yet, he managed to beat him in lightsabre combat - despite Windu not being familiar with Palpatine's vicious lightsabre style.

Again, not a complicated issue. And he used these characters as a springboard to be able to fight Sidious. Just like how he used everything prior to the Vader fight to help him beat him. That's how experience works. That's what getting better means.

But when you count in the factors of the fights he fought, you would realize that most of them were against inferior lightsabre combat duelists( exception for Lumiya) or they were draws.

If his duels always had outside factors - that does not increase his lightsabre mastery to such ridiculous levels as you assume. You seem to imply that Luke beat Palpatine in their lightsabre duel because he had an astonishing amount of lightsabre experience(as well gauging Palpatine's lightsabre skills off that) - which is simply not true. At best - it is comparable with his father's experience(in Anakin's case in terms of intensity)

[/QUOTE]And not to mention his solo training as well. What is that, 5 and a half years of training to get better?[/QUOTE]

Solo training doesn't compare to battle experience. The first just 'helps' you in maintaining your 'current' combat skills.

It doesn't matter though because Luke gets randomly better at lightsaber combat just by getting stronger.

Give a source.

In fact your sole argument here is that Palpatine is nothing without speed. Yet he was able to match for a while the two best duelist in the Order when the speed was equalized.

Excuse me for a moment? But you clearly don't make the difference between a good lightsabre combatant and the G.O.A.T lightsabre combatant. I never said for once that Palpatine is not good with a lightsabre; I merely said that he is not this G.O.A.T the Sheevites deem him to be. Can you make the difference between a decent lightsabre practitioner and a G.O.A.T?
Main point is that Palpatine is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat. If he was - he should have beaten both in lightsabre combat.
Understand now?

However - in both cases he made use of his Force ability when he knew he cannot win lightsabre combat.

This argument would lead us to believe that Luke is a better duelist than Yoda and Mace without any formal "lightsabre" training.

Taking in consideration that by the time of the OT - Palpatine doesn't practice lightsabre combat anymore. Of course his lightsabre skills would diminish in time. Especially by the time of Dark Empire. I don't know what's so hard to understand, honestly? Most Legends sources depict Palpatine as a Force wielder and not a lightsabre practitioner.

Luke was the only one out of the three to maim Palpatine severely, and he did it against a heavily amped Palpatine and he did it only because his speed was equalized. Again, your words.

No. He did it because Palpatine's lightsabre skills suck(especially the most during the Dark Empire)

So no, his experience doesn't matter. All Mace and Yoda could do was disarm Palpatine after a hard fought fight while Luke cut his hand right off.

Yes, because during the PT - Palpatine's lightsabre skills were not totally 'obsolete'.

Luke is a prodigy. All that matters is what he can do, not his experience dueling all the time.

That is not an argument. Unless you want to say again that greater Force strength means 'superior skill' which is not true.

It took him 4 years to beat Vader who has some of the most combat experience in the series.

Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker:
-beat Dooku(but the novel informs the reader that Dooku was past his prime and was totally caught off guard)
-equaled Obi-Wan(draw)
-got defeated by Galen Marek on the Death Star
-got defeated by his clone
-couldn't beat an old Obi-Wan

And as it has been said before. Vader clearly held back. He didn't want to destroy Luke. He needed him.

It took him 10 years to be more skilled than someone who can do extremely well in pure skill against the two best duelists in Jedi history.

Luke should be nowhere near what he is is the point. Yet, we know by DE that Luke was more skilled than ever with a saber, so that's why his combat experience doesn't matter.

Yes, it does. And, no, by the time of Dark Empire - Palpatine's skills with a lightsabre were shit. Just that - plain and simple.

https://i.imgur.com/KqTTlgq.jpg

So, this source basically states that Luke became a better Force master and that 'he knew the moment when to strike with a lightsabre' - this just makes reference to his Jedi discipline - now he knows when to make use of lethal force and not. It does not make reference to his lightsabre mastery. His acrobatics and leaps are obviously linked to his Force mastery, not lightsabre mastery. 🙂

Where was it said Luke's abilities were being hindered?

You gotta be kidding with me, right?

It is a well known fact that light side wielders are hindered by Dark Side nexi. Didn't you know that?

Hell, Leia was getting stronger being on Byss. At the very least Luke wasn't getting weaker.

When did Leia get stronger being on Byss? o_0
Yes - he was. Both of them were being hindered by the Dark Side nexus.

Especially when Luke was dipping into Dark Side powers to create a hologram to fool his friends before then. Not to mention Sheev was just getting his power and getting more powerful moment by moment when he jumped into his new body.

When he turned against Palpatine - he gave up on the Dark Side.
It's very doubtful the battlefield played any part there.

I wouldn't exactly say his Star Destroyer is a massive Dark Side Nexus either, but then again, I don't care.

Leia confirms it when Palpatine is not aboard the Eclipse.

She had a ****ing lightwhip... and that was their second fight. In contrast, Palpatine was using a lightsaber...

Yeah - and when it came about lightsabres - Luke almost immediately owned Palpatine. See - he just was not familiar with her combat style. But then you may use this argument against me saying as to how Lumiya managed to defeat Flint. But you would be right - both of them lost against her because of that.

Equal footing. Windu was amped farther than he has ever been amped before.

Actually, no. They had the same speed. If Palpatine's speed increased - so did Windu's. 🙂

Yoda literally had an advantage with the podium, and his lightsaber style also has him amping his speed with the force.

Both were speed amped. Your point?

But Windu didn't have any advantage and he still kicked Sheev's wrinkled butt. 🙂

And Luke you yourself admitted had his speed amped.

Both were. And yet Palpatine was the one who lost. If their speed is the same. That means (DE) Palpatine just sucks with a lightsabre if he lost against Luke.

2 of the 3 required in your own words speed amps to contend with Palpatine's natural boosts of speed with his lightsaber style. Again, it'd be like trying to take away Yoda's boosts and trying to pretend he's a shitty duelist because of it.

You do realize that not the Force speed amplifier is the problem in Palpatine's fights? The problem is when two guys have the same speed. Then you see who is the better fighter.

Both Yoda and Palpatine amp their speed, and both of them are tier 9 duelists. They are either at that level because of their skill alone, or they're at that level because of their speed and skill.

This is G-canon, not EU/Legends. Gillard's classification is only for G-canon. It has nothing to do with the EU.

If it's skill alone it means Palpatine is a tier 9 in skill and can further amp his speed to compliment it.

Once again. Not Legends. It is not Legends applicable.

To go the opposite way, it'd be like slowing down their speed to normal human levels and assuming they can still compete with Shaak Ti. The speed is part of the reason they're so skilled. Because they can combine their speed with their skill in the saber.

Put all of them on the same speed. And see who is the better fighter. 🙂

It is perplexing, because you still can't take his speed away. You're trying to separate them when you literally cannot, and deciding that only arbitrary rules that follow only your guidelines count as an application of skill. It is again, no different than me just going around whining about Yoda's speed and how it isn't skill.

The problem is not in using the Force to amp up your speed. The problem is in when you and your enemy have equal speed and he beats you despite people think you are the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat.

For an actual real world example, Mike Tyson is regarded as skilled as he was largely because of his speed. The speed his hip extended was ridiculous. The speed in which he could dodge and strike as well. Roy Jones Jr is regarded as easily top 10 of the most skilled boxers of all time in his prime because of his speed. Ali as well made extreme use of his speed of his jab and footwork. Floyd's counters and defense are speed. Pacman's offense is ridiculous.

You are right. There cannot be any comparison.

No one would say these fighters aren't skilled because they abuse their speed... actually😛/QUOTE]

Greater speed does not mean greater skill. Yes, that's true even for real people.

[QUOTE]Look how unskilled they are because they are abusing something their opponents lack!

Right said. I cannot blame you. 🙂

And Obi Wan is using an extension of the force to be so good at his form. He's cheating. It's not his skill alone.

But Anakin uses the Force too. So, they are even. There is no reason to say that Obi-Wan is not skilled when it comes to combatants who manage to equal his speed.

That's how ridiculous this is. If everyone could boost their speed to Palpatine's level and be able to compete with Yoda, they would.

But for how long? 🙂

Mace needed a huge amp to compete with him. You're trying to take away Palpatine's speed, but you think it highly relevant that Mace who can only amp to that level against Palpatine means Palpatine is actually shit.

If the Speed is the same you see who is the better in combat skill. And Windu proved he was despite the amp. I don't have problems with any speed amps - but if two guys fight and one gets owned(despite his hype-y praise), then you get my point.

I have no issue counting Mace's performance against Sheev. What I find odd is someone being a huge hypocrite whining about an innate ability being unfair and not an application of skill, and therefore it doesn't count.

Did he beat his ass in lightsabre combat? He did. End of Story.

Mace came out on top against Sheev. I agree. Mace however needed a huge amp to do it. Which much like Vapaad actually loops back into Sheev to show how good he actually is.

Only the Force power, not the lightsabre skill. Otherwise neither side would win the lightsabre battle.

Sheev can use his speed against everyone. Mace can only use that level of power against Sheev. That is the difference. This is completely nonsensical.

I don't care about speed amps - for one last time. If two adversaries fight and the one with the biggest praise loses - then you get my point(again)

So you mean in the media spawned from the game that he did something different in?
Also again, you were using the game

Yes. The novel and the comic book is accurate. However, in all instances - Galen was severely weakened. That means he was at the limit. So it's not that impressive when Sheev owned him. Especially when we talk about TOR powerhouses.

That's a first person perspective only accomplished from you the player fighting Palpatine. Grab some dignity and own up to one of these things at least in your rebuttal. Almost every post you made in this thread has been an embarrassing backtrack.

Sorry - sometimes I use this perspective in my arguments. Don't ask me why. I just do it. 🙂

I never said anything about that fight. I was speaking of Zonakin. When he pretty much uses the force to become way better in a duel in every respect. Somehow this wasn't a measure of skill because he was amping his speed?

It was explained in ROTS novel that he beat Dooku because Dooku was long past his prime and because he was caught off by Skywalker's 'doubled power'. Had Dooku knew Anakin's improved fighting style - it would have been most likely barely a draw

The fact that he didn't use it doesn't show evidence of his lack of saber skills, it shows he didn't even need to use it against someone with a saber. That's it. It'd be like claiming his force powers were insufficient against Kit Fisto because he only used his lightsaber.

But Valkorion also carries a lightsabre. Does that mean he is a G.O.A.T duelist? Of course not. Sith Lords do carry their lightsabres. It's just in the arsenal of a Sith Lord.

I mean, you brag about how you only debate when you're not trolling... but this is absolutely awful. I have never in my life encountered someone who backtracked this much. You should not have admitted you weren't trolling.

I am not trolling right now, though.
If you think this is absolutely awful? Okay.

And then once you saw the video I posted you realized that wasn't the full story, so you backtracked to mean the comic/novel. I question what happened in the novel because I haven't seen it, but in the comic he still overloaded the cannon to destroy the faculty and send the Star Destroyer hurtling down/redirected it where he wanted it/slowed it down. Which is still a tremendous feat. Sidious tanked a full power attack from this being. From a media you brought up. You will then conveniently forget you brought something up from this series and go right back to downplaying Sheev at every turn. If I made a star destroyer thread within a week, I can almost guarantee you'd be in that thread talking about how bad the Sheev wank is. Just like every thread.

The novel is similar to the game - except that you don't fight that long Palpatine and his Dark Side adepts.

You should know two things:
1. There is Galen Marek
2. There is his clone

1. Galen Marek's skill with the Star Destroyer exhausted him. So, it wasn't an ordinary feat. He reached to his limit.

2. Galen Marek's clone has a greater strength in the Force. Not sure why?

Nice feat for Marek clone in powering up the canons. But when it comes about TOR powerhouses - this is not impressive.
Ever heard of Darth Nihilus - who could TK a 1,800 Star Destroyer-like warship without breaking a sweat and was a world-eater?
Or Darth Nyriss - whose lightning ashed people upon contact?
Or Valkorion - who is above Nyriss and it is said to be above even Nihilus?

Are you aware - that Legends-wise, Palpatine's 'nigh' feats are not at all impressive?

Also, Maul/Savage was a good feat on Sheev's behalf. You'd have to be very ignorant to claim it didn't show his skill.

"But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed."

Because again, that is his lightsaber style. And he was precise enough to never go off the intended target by more than a millimeter. If that isn't skill, I don't know what is. You can't even toss out a point without backtracking. Now imagine someone never straying from their intended aim more than a millimeter.

Keyword: astonishingly fast and efficient. Given his superior speed - of course he would easily beat their asses. Not to mention he also Force owned them while lightsabre battling them.

You mistake my mockery for just one account. EVERY SINGLE SHEEV THREAD IS THAT.

Hey, I did say I was sorry. 🙂

It's all one sad attempt to downplay him. I understand you don't like his hype, but trying to combine a Lion King puzzle with a Jungle Book puzzle simply won't work. You don't go about your hate in a way that would lead others to see it your way. You just jam things where it doesn't belong.

They do belong. Sheev is deemed the most powerful Sith because he brought an end to the Jedi Order+his multiversal characteristics(Force strength, Force knowledge, military and political power) He has a bit from each.

Sheev is only called the most powerful Sith because he has a lot of political pull. Sheev's own speed is the reason he can stomp others in lightsabers... nothing to do with skill. Shit like that.

The PT and the OT obviously make that blatant given Palpatine's absolute hype. He is there with the most powerful Sith Lords, rightfully so. But he is not the strongest. That's the point.

Am I supposed to believe from your words that Kit Fisto is possibly on Sheev's level just because Sheev abused his own lightsaber style? Like really, how could you possibly correlate this?

No. You are supposed to believe that Palpatine is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabres. That's all. 🙂

But, then again, the ROTS novel makes it clear that Palpatine killed them all due to his superior speed. Just saying...

Sheev vs Kit Fisto but you can't use anything from Sheev being faster than his opponents including Fisto? Maul vs Sheev but Sheev is just as fast as Maul. Don't use any fights where Sheev outskills Maul because it might be speed?

Sheev is faster than Maul.

Your lowballing leads to nonsense and extreme handouts.

Nah. My lowballing is there only to remind the Sheevites that Sheev is not the G.O.A.T in lightsabre combat.

Even if that were possibly the case... that you're right. How could you possibly police what counts and what doesn't? It's already confusing enough with how much one area amps someone, now you're literally taking away normal showings just because of speed and making some "Only I should make the rules about this" guidelines.

Amp is irrelevant. What is important is if the fighters - who fight on equal ground - win based on their combat skills.

And again, are ignoring the existence of Yoda. Someone who relies heavily on his speed. Apparently this guideline only applies to Sheev.

Never implied that. But Yoda owned Palpatine in lightsabre combat. And that's all.

You should really use the full quote.
Obi-Wan: [on hologram, from Kamino] I have successfully made contact with the Prime Minister of Kamino. They are using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army. I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we're looking for.
Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive!
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. They say that a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
Mace: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.
Yoda: Into custody, take this Jango Fett. Bring him here. Question him, we will.
Obi-Wan: Yes, Master. I will report back if and when I have him. [hologram fades]
Yoda: Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see.
Mace: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.

The Dark Cloud around the Jedi was only attributed to stopping them from seeing events unfold. It was clouding their connection to the force and stopping them from seeing things like the creation of the Clone Army. It was allowing the Sith Lord to rise to power when they didn't have the clarity to put a halt to things that would have stopped this.
Not once to my knowledge was it ever said to diminish their combat abilities. All it did was stop them from seeing events that the audience would go "Hey, why didn't you stop that you idiot?"

You do realize if that was the case, Windu should have said: "Our Force ability/foresight has diminished."?

You do realize that the Jedi's Force foresight is actually just one of their many Force abilities?
That's why Windu said: "Our ability to use the Force."

Not to mention that the Darth Plagueis novel plainly evidenced that when you(I mean Palpatine) and Darth Plagueis suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side and turn the Balance in the favor of the Sith Order.

Not to mention Mace got more powerful than he ever has against Sidious with this "diminished" capacity. Hell, Yoda was the most powerful Jedi to ever fight the Dark Side at that point in time

"This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war."

Yes. But what has this to do with the Jedi's ability to use the Force being diminished?

One does not contradict the latter. It just says that during the PT - Yoda was the most powerful representant of the light side. In fact, it acknowledges his immense power despite the Jedi were hindered.

Which really seems to imply he's at his most powerful come ROTS which would indicate the "weakening" really did nothing.

No - it just means that Yoda was at that time the light side's most powerful avatar. That's all. It just acknowledges his Force strength.

That there's a literal scan in that quote that says Jedi amp their stats with the force to use a lightsaber. Speed included. I am at a loss of how to make the point more clear. Seriously. The sheer ignorance is overwhelming. I don't even know if I'm making good points since everything I read is not great and I think it's effecting my own abilities. Much like you think Sidious did to the Jedi.

I have nothing with speed amps when the duelists have the same speed and prove(whoever that is) to have greater combat skills than their enemy they face.

And yes, I realize if we assume Sidious weakened the force it would have nothing to do with his lightsaber skills. My point is that you're going to say that Sidious weakened the entire Jedi Order here to suit your needs, and then somewhere down the line you're going to weasel out of this claim and play stupid, and likely even argue against it. I'd go get the quote from Tarkin to explain it, but you yourself claiming Sidious weakened them is delicious.

1. But he did
2. The point is that he is not the lightsabre G.O.A.T

Tell me how overhyped Sidious is though and how he's mostly political power when you're in here stating that Palpatine was cutting off the entire Jedi Order from the Force and it weakened them in combat.
Grab some sense.

You grab some sense. The Legends material has clearly established that a lot of Palpatine's absolute hype comes from his combination of Force strength+Force knowledge+military and political power.

Why do you think he is the Sith G.O.A.T in absolute hypes? Because he brought an end to the Jedi Order and conquered the entire galaxy. And it wasn't done through the expression of power, but through the expression of cunning and manipulation. What he had done has not been achieved through brute 'Force' strength as past Sith Lords tried and failed to. He had done it through cunning and influence.

Yoda was the equal to Palpatine in the Force.

Naturally. Which it is a statement which does not take into account any impediments in Yoda's abilities.

"Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious."

Which means that even if we assume Yoda couldn't draw on his full reserves because his vision was clouded, he could still draw on as much of the force as Sidious.

Basically the source above says that their knowledge rivaled each other. And it's not Yoda we talk about. It's Palpatine. And he lost in lightsabre combat in the end. Plain and simple.

Meh. Likely won't reply to you. This is stupid.

When your arguments only resume to surface of things - I agree. 🙂