Sidious' saber skills

Originally posted by Galan007
What a terrible and entirely self-defeating bit of non-logic, lol.

Yoda was stated to have "mastery" of Ataro, and Kenobi was regarded as "THE master" of Soresu:

-RotS

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' Ataro and Kenobi hadn't 'perfected' Soresu? Please.

Heck, Yoda was stated to be a "master" of ALL lightsaber styles:
https://i.imgur.com/mHIkSul.jpg

So your contention is that Yoda hadn't 'perfected' said styles? Please.

Of course there are SEVERAL other examples I could post(ie. Dooku being regarded as a Makashi "master", Kit Fisto being regarded as a Shii-Cho "master", Adi Gallia being regarded as a Shien "master", etc. etc.), but there's really no reason. Clearly if one is regarded as a true "master" of a given form, it is assumed they have "perfected" it(especially when we start talking about high-level swordmasters like Yoda and Palpatine.) Laughably foolish to assume otherwise, tbh.

And it makes sense to you?

Are you not ready to question such statement/s?

If your gouvern tells you tomorrow to shoot anyone who steals petty things - I guess you'd do it because it is "official". And you cannot disagree with that nor seeing the flaws in such commandment to prove them wrong and seek a solution to clear this nonsense.

I just wonder myself if you have the ability/the awareness to question anything people would tell you - be it in words or written form?

Humans are clearly flawed beings. To take anything for granted just because it is official doesn't make any sense. The world advanced due to polemics and not blind obedience. But in the end - I think I am wasting my time here.

One final question:

If a master of all forms means that one has perfected all the forms to perfection. How comes that Yoda>Dooku in lightsabre combat? How comes there are some lightsabre Masters who are 'more skilled' than others and manage to defeat them in combat?

How comes that a DE Luke managed to beat Palpatine in lightsabre combat despite the praise Palpatine gets in some sources of the EU lore?

Or, you are finally coming to your senses and understand just because something is official doesn't make it valid. And just because something is published(which also is inconsistent to the lore) doesn't mean it's accurate. And we know that something inaccurate and inconsistent cannot be taken as a valid fact - when such things happen in a debate.

I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.

Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, but for a debating forum there is an objective answer for Sidious' skill level.

Alright, I'm going to go back on that last comment of mine. Sidious must have some sort of objective skill with a lightsaber, but there are subjective influences.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.

Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

1. You don't have to write that much.
2. I was just saying how could someone with Luke's small experience beat Palpatine with an experience that is beyond comprehension per some sources?
3. Or how can a Master beat another Master when each of them perfected the lightsabres form to perfection?
4. Or how can Yoda>Dooku in lightsabre combat if both are Masters? Or how can Windu beat Palpatine in lightsabre combat in Revenge of the Sith despite the fact that Palpatine's lightsabre skills are beyond understanding?
5. Honestly - this was not meant to you, but for the Admiral.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I still can't figure out how you think it's an excellent point to point out that Sheev's skill diminished over time and somehow that's relevant to his skill in his prime when he collected his accolades.
Among other things but this is highly counterproductive to the point you're trying to establish.

It'd be like me trying to judge or diminish George Foreman's skills in his prime based off of when he came back when he was 45-50. The only thing you're doing is showing that he was even more skilled than DE at one point in time. Not to mention you make a big deal of Yoda being "weakened" yet you outright admit that Sidious is not as skilled as he once was and this somehow effects his skill standing.

There is so many things wrong with your posts, but this one in particular erases half your points. Yet you're still bringing it up. This is very confusing, and a reason why I kind of wanted to answer your post.

Can you explain why you think Luke beating Sidious in DE sabers is a good indicator of Sheev's skill when you admitted that his skill has gone downhill?

Where's it stated Sheev's skill diminished? He's got an accolade saying he's the equal of Windu and Yoda even as of RotJ.

Originally posted by Azronger
Where's it stated Sheev's skill diminished? He's got an accolade saying he's the equal of Windu and Yoda even as of RotJ.

Freedent is the one saying his skills diminished while in the same breath speaking as if the DE showing means a lot. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in this line of thinking.
The guy is complaining about Sidious being a Mary Sue while wondering how Luke got so good, for example as well. There is a lot of conflict with what he says to say the least. Well worth a read to see how many times he tramples over his own points. 👆

Though I would assume if he was truly out of practice for decades that he wouldn't be as sharp as he once was. But I'm not convinced that isn't just people accounting for the lack of showings with one and assuming he doesn't train anymore. I can't fathom he simply gave up training with a lightsaber after seeing how skilled some of the Jedi were with it, but I've never looked into the subject.

Sidious stated that he hated lightsaber combat and only employed it as a tool against the jedi. He also felt it was a way of mocking them. So after the rise of the Empire I'm not sure what incentive he would have to keep his skills sharp. He had Vader, he had his Royal Guards. His force powers at this point were well-above the point of needing to resort to light-saber combat to defeat his enemies.

Nadd me thinks you're selling Flint a little short.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I didn't share my personal thoughts on the subject.

Freedent is the one saying his skills diminished while in the same breath speaking as if the DE showing means a lot. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in this line of thinking.
The guy is complaining about Sidious being a Mary Sue while wondering how Luke got so good, for example as well. There is a lot of conflict with what he says to say the least. Well worth a read to see how many times he tramples over his own points. 👆

Though I would assume if he was truly out of practice for decades that he wouldn't be as sharp as he once was. But I'm not convinced that isn't just people accounting for the lack of showings with one and assuming he doesn't train anymore. I can't fathom he simply gave up training with a lightsaber after seeing how skilled some of the Jedi were with it, but I've never looked into the subject.

Yes. But we were going off the premise that everything I say is wrong and stupid, right? Therefore, my statements and interpretation hold no water?

All in all: If you think that a 6 years old lightsabre combat Luke>Sidious in lightsabre combat despite his enormous praise, then you are further proving me that Sidious sucks with a lightsabre. If it's the other way around: you are further proving me how inaccurate handbooks and sourcebooks are when it comes to in-universe interpretation of said-so events and characters.

But have it your way.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Nadd me thinks you're selling Flint a little short.

Not really. They were comparable back then.

We know that Luke didn't want him to be a Jedi and that he had to do the low class job(stormtrooper) to become a part of the Empire. And the stormtrooper thing was quite long.
He didn't really have enough training to put him on Ventress' level - for example.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Not really. They were comparable back then.

We know that Luke didn't want him to be a Jedi and that he had to do the low class job(stormtrooper) to become a part of the Empire. And the stormtrooper thing was quite long.
He didn't really have enough training to put him on Ventress' level - for example.

Well what I mean is, you said he had no combat skills. Unless you were meaning Jedi skill, but maybe I was confused with your wording. Being a Stormtrooper isn't really low class either, their training is pretty cut throat and they are trained in melee weaponry.

I can agree to that though, still it was noted he was trained by Vader and the battle between him and Lumiya was described as fierce and left both combatants battered, it wasn't like a one-two and done kind of thing.

I'm not saying Flint is like in the top range or anything, but to say he's barely a combatant seems a little low for him.

Well he had a stalemate with Luke - so.

On top of that: Stormtroopers are not trained to use lightsabres nor Force powers.

Also, Lumiya noted that it was her rare weapon combo'd with her fighting style which allowed her to beat Flint.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Well he had a stalemate with Luke - so.

On top of that: Stormtroopers are not trained to use lightsabres nor Force powers.

Also, Lumiya noted that it was her rare weapon combo'd with her fighting style which allowed her to beat Flint.

Right and Luke has shown great lightsaber skill up to that point.

They are not no, so unless you were meaning combat skills in relation to Jedi training then ok(though Kyle was able to somewhat manage using a lightsaber his first time via fighting with Stormtrooper fencing training, so rudimentary basics would still be involved), but he does have combat skill otherwise.

Which takes away from them having a fierce fight how? It was still a fight that left the two of them battered, it's just that Lumiya came out with the win.

Again not saying Flint is a high tier combatant, but he's not a low one either, given he was trained by Vader too.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right and Luke has shown great lightsaber skill up to that point.

They are not no, so unless you were meaning combat skills in relation to Jedi training then ok(though Kyle was able to somewhat manage using a lightsaber his first time via fighting with Stormtrooper fencing training, so rudimentary basics would still be involved), but he does have combat skill otherwise.

Which takes away from them having a fierce fight how? It was still a fight that left the two of them battered, it's just that Lumiya came out with the win.

Again not saying Flint is a high tier combatant, but he's not a low one either, given he was trained by Vader too.

What great lightsabre skills?

His experience was just like Luke's.

So what if he got trained by Vader?

Is it something else if Vandar trains you how to use a lightsabre or Vader does?

All I am saying is that Flint was only a 'newbie' when he confronted Luke. He had no battle experience at all. Luke was his first adversary.
But believe what you want.

Imo he’s one of the best saber duelists in Star Wars history.

Imo (and I don’t care what anyone says) he let mace beat him. As for Yoda, I think he knew he couldn’t beat Yoda saber to saber but was the superior force user.