Superman vs Goku

Originally posted by cdtm
I expected this response, and no, I wasn't joking. 😛

The key words here, are that the place he was dumped "isn't" a dream, and "all of reality" is a dream.

That means this isn't a simple dream, or illusion. Not in the sense of Dorthy going to see the Wizard of Oz. The fact this void would have killed Superman proves that it isn't simply all happening in his head, or that the images are merely "metaphorical", or however one wants to describe an inconsequential illusion.

Put another way, if Superman was going through Dreams dimension, and faced dangers there, do we write it off as "just a dream"? If he managed to break out of his place of power, after Dream says he'd be lost forever, would that not be a feat?

That was Hell. The scans even say it. The underlying area was a void, but that doesn't relate to all of existence, just Hell. That was the basis of where everything forms for these beings. These beings are living in their own Hell of their own creations made possible by the realm.

Superman was a spirit/a stray thought put in a place where he wasn't allowed to create anymore dreams so he lost himself. That's not the same as physical entropy.

Does Dreams dimension rely heavily on projections and illusions? And are they actual fully fledged universes?
Also Carver is itching to post Hulk vs Nightmare fights now.

Anyway, everything was essentially a vision quest designed to trap Superman forever. Nothing was actually real, and nothing was "full sized" if you will. They were spirits separated from their physical bodies where things were "created" based on their designs. Essentially illusions or projections.
Think telepathy battles. It was a great willpower feat, but it's not relevant to anything physical, and Superman needed Lois to project herself and therefore weaken herself to remind him of love. Which means Lois was able to reach the Void under her own power while trapped.

Symbolism is lost. Love conquers all means that love physically destroys universes.

https://i.imgur.com/oif1rwB.jpg

Originally posted by One Big Mob
So even if you're correct, where does the feat come in far beyond Dragon Ball, and how does it relate to anything Goku can do? Goku isn't trying to trick Superman with illusions and false realities. It's not a mental battle.

That was Hell. The scans even say it. The underlying area was a void, but that doesn't relate to all of existence, just Hell. That was the basis of where everything forms for these beings. These beings are living in their own Hell of their own creations made possible by the realm.

Superman was a spirit/a stray thought put in a place where he wasn't allowed to create anymore dreams so he lost himself. That's not the same as physical entropy.

Does Dreams dimension rely heavily on projections and illusions? And are they actual fully fledged universes?
Also Carver is itching to post Hulk vs Nightmare fights now.

Anyway, everything was essentially a vision quest designed to trap Superman forever. Nothing was actually real, and nothing was "full sized" if you will. They were spirits separated from their physical bodies where things were "created" based on their designs. Essentially illusions or projections.
Think telepathy battles. It was a great willpower feat, but it's not relevant to anything physical, and Superman needed Lois to project herself and therefore weaken herself to remind him of love. Which means Lois was able to reach the Void under her own power while trapped.

Symbolism is lost. Love conquers all means that love physically destroys universes.

https://i.imgur.com/oif1rwB.jpg

and back to superman,this isn't surprise,because superman had been defeat a universes death when lois love raising his emotion.and since superman power is relative to his emotions.(and also survived a destroying universe black hole)
superman where is thy sting
https://i.imgur.com/WNqFvwx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vyt8SGp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3p7oCqZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nj8y9EA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yKSRAD3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJ3Ma65.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tbUDzyA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xAbYqHB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3c7ZMmn.jpg
lois and clark loves dc power has mentioning time and time again,from breaking dominus' reailities,to mxy even state them loves been lock/deep at quantum level,i don't know how does this prove superman didn't had been destroy endless universes?and superman's soul state is more fragile than physical form,this been confirmed by neron himself
https://i.imgur.com/yrX7kmn.jpg
yes,even mxy himself confirmed how powerful lois and superman love is
https://i.imgur.com/keBwcEt.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
jesus,first of all,this is how hell work in dc,all dreams/thoughts has creating universes.and is as real as anything else
green lantern/superman
infinite souls each has they own hell
https://i.imgur.com/En5mfjm.jpg

Which brings into question of how big exactly they would be, and how impressive they'd be. Humans aren't creating full DC sized universes just to torture themselves for example, and even one of your scans calls them bubble universes. They're built from the thoughts of souls to torture humans. You can't liken them to full fledged real universes.

Yes, it's real to the people it's happening to, but at the same time it's... not really. It's as real as they allow it to be, but it still "exists."
It's dream realities that happen in another plane of existence. It's very similar to a mindplane or something of that nature. Superman thought he could control it had he gotten his mind back in shape. Then when he finally got happy, he just smashed through everything on his way to Lois. He even calls them "illusions" as he does it.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

hells created by thoughts
the spectre V4
https://i.imgur.com/C7ESryx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oUZQhIw.jpg

Both Heaven and Hell were heavily dependent on the mind, again, not much changes, but it does move it further and further away from being an actual physical thing Superman can accomplish in battle (unless we're speaking on his mental fortitude).
https://i.imgur.com/eoYb9lr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A9vxkwF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cqkLGbG.jpg

Spectre even calls them an "Astral Echo" here

And here's Stigmonus creating his own Hell, but we get to view him from the outside looking in, which puts further emphasis on it being heavily mental (which I don't know why I have to even say considering the nature of the feat).
https://i.imgur.com/JFA33S1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6OmAJn6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ggzwge5.jpg

It's a dream bro. Not necessarily one you can wake up from, but the same idea.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
emperor joker,more specifically explain how hell work and how emperor joker create his own universe,by use his own dream universe to replace this universe.and everyone though they create universes,but no one take control(at least,you need someone like emperor joker or spectre to take control those universes)
so essentially, superman is literally uses his own power to smashing endless realities/universes
https://i.imgur.com/fCX9Mng.jpg

"At least on one plane of creation"

It's saying he forces himself into every person's dream so they can't get away from him though.
https://imgur.com/KkEzwvu

Superman even separates the physical from the mental/soul plane here, and Joker confirms it's his dream and he can't be beaten.
"Holographic hallucination"
https://i.imgur.com/VyDH9XF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uJvKlku.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and lois mind or emotion didn't destroying any universe,she just find a way to reach superman since hell itself could interact with thoughts
https://imgur.com/NX1f2g4

Again, very hard to think this is applicable to a physical battle especially with the separation in said comics. Applicable to him knocking out Martian Manhunter, Professor X, or even the Soul Gem? Sure.

Him punching out realities formed by his own thoughts in Hell as a spirit notably not in his physical body is a very hard to swallow reason of why he'd possibly beat Goku. Goku can't... erase his soul?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and back to superman,this isn't surprise,because superman had been defeat a universes death when lois love raising his emotion.and since superman power is relative to his emotions.(and also survived a destroying universe black hole)
superman where is thy sting
https://i.imgur.com/WNqFvwx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vyt8SGp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3p7oCqZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nj8y9EA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yKSRAD3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJ3Ma65.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tbUDzyA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xAbYqHB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3c7ZMmn.jpg
lois and clark loves dc power has mentioning time and time again,from breaking dominus' reailities,to mxy even state them loves been lock/deep at quantum level,i don't know how does this prove superman didn't had been destroy endless universes?and superman's soul state is more fragile than physical form,this been confirmed by neron himself
https://i.imgur.com/yrX7kmn.jpg
yes,even mxy himself confirmed how powerful lois and superman love is
https://i.imgur.com/keBwcEt.jpg

Not sure what that has to do with endless universes, but sure. Funny how you're not bringing up Superman from the explicit physical plane doing this, but again, sure.

Neron was putting Superman down, and by all means he was correct until Lois' love reached him. Still though, that or the love doesn't mean that he was smashing endless universes relevant to battle. Nor have you attempted to prove those "universes" mean anything even if you're correct. In fact you posted a scan that specifically called them bubble universes, and there's not really evidence to make those "universes" that Superman experienced mean anything major.

With that being said, I have to ask you:

What do YOU think Superman smashing endless universes mean to a battle?

Can he just punch out infinite Imperiexes or what's the deal here with what you're saying?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Their own Hell that they (humans) create themselves, yes.
https://i.imgur.com/hm3x9nx.jpg

Which brings into question of how big exactly they would be, and how impressive they'd be. Humans aren't creating full DC sized universes just to torture themselves for example, and even one of your scans calls them bubble universes. They're built from the thoughts of souls to torture humans. You can't liken them to full fledged real universes.

Yes, it's real to the people it's happening to, but at the same time it's... not really. It's as real as they allow it to be, but it still "exists."
It's dream realities that happen in another plane of existence. It's very similar to a mindplane or something of that nature. Superman thought he could control it had he gotten his mind back in shape. Then when he finally got happy, he just smashed through everything on his way to Lois. He even calls them "illusions" as he does it.

Funny you should use that.

Both Heaven and Hell were heavily dependent on the mind, again, not much changes, but it does move it further and further away from being an actual physical thing Superman can accomplish in battle (unless we're speaking on his mental fortitude).
https://i.imgur.com/eoYb9lr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A9vxkwF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cqkLGbG.jpg

Spectre even calls them an "Astral Echo" here

And here's Stigmonus creating his own Hell, but we get to view him from the outside looking in, which puts further emphasis on it being heavily mental (which I don't know why I have to even say considering the nature of the feat).
https://i.imgur.com/JFA33S1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6OmAJn6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ggzwge5.jpg

It's a dream bro. Not necessarily one you can wake up from, but the same idea.

"At least on one plane of creation"

It's saying he forces himself into every person's dream so they can't get away from him though.
https://imgur.com/KkEzwvu

Superman even separates the physical from the mental/soul plane here, and Joker confirms it's his dream and he can't be beaten.
"Holographic hallucination"
https://i.imgur.com/VyDH9XF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uJvKlku.jpg

I didn't say she destroyed a universe, I said her calling out to Superman by extending her spirit had reached the Void. Again, due to the nature of the place they were at.

Again, very hard to think this is applicable to a physical battle especially with the separation in said comics. Applicable to him knocking out Martian Manhunter, Professor X, or even the Soul Gem? Sure.

Him punching out realities formed by his own thoughts in Hell as a spirit notably not in his physical body is a very hard to swallow reason of why he'd possibly beat Goku. Goku can't... erase his soul?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Not sure what that has to do with endless universes, but sure. Funny how you're not bringing up Superman from the explicit physical plane doing this, but again, sure.

Neron was putting Superman down, and by all means he was correct until Lois' love reached him. Still though, that or the love doesn't mean that he was smashing endless universes relevant to battle. Nor have you attempted to prove those "universes" mean anything even if you're correct. In fact you posted a scan that specifically called them bubble universes, and there's not really evidence to make those "universes" that Superman experienced mean anything major.

With that being said, I have to ask you:

What do YOU think Superman smashing endless universes mean to a battle?

Can he just punch out infinite Imperiexes or what's the deal here with what you're saying?

and as a reference about this feat,you even could look dematteis other comics.
consciousness can create secondary realities no less tangible than the primary one.
https://i.imgur.com/mdf8uwh.jpg
and look back to dc,also said creation/main universe is just another dream,same situation apply to all other universes,so you asking how big or real is essentially asking how big/real is dc universe(s)?
https://i.imgur.com/9Ra3aId.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kEeiQNX.jpg

or you looking at other comics,dream universe also had been prove it as real as main universe
superman and justice league
dreamverse is real
https://i.imgur.com/6E0gta1.jpg
dreams within dreams,realities within realities
https://i.imgur.com/5LmXs2E.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
first of all,this how big universe is has been answered-all universes is dream,including creation universe,so how big creation(main dc universe)is,then how big is the dream universe,and all universes essentially is come from dreams

That's a huge non sequitur. Even if the main universe were a dream along the same vein, that doesn't mean that the little bubble universe HUMANS are dreaming up to torture themselves is anywhere near the same size. These dream Hells don't have people tending to them in the same capacity as the main universe, they don't have working laws of physics or static laws, etc. They are created by one being to torture themselves. That's it.

Why would Hell allow normal humans to create dimensions comparable to the main universes in an infinite capacity?

Prove it basically.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
"that creation itself is a dream"
https://i.imgur.com/9Ra3aId.jpg
"(the void)the foundation of every so-called reality that wafts throught the minds of men and gods"
https://i.imgur.com/kEeiQNX.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
bubble universes is mean all universes existing in a quantum dream
"a quantum dream.....each of us floating in a bubble that contains our personal univeres"
https://i.imgur.com/fCX9Mng.jpg

I'm not sure calling full fledged DC sized universes "bubbles," and "personalized universes -- our individual illusions and fancies" is a thing though.

Literal bubble universes. Backed up by them being created by humans, and you not actually showing the size of these universes besides trying to liken them to the main ones via the "dream" non sequitur.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
superman never said he control these realities,he is literally smashing it.he call it illusion is connect to he said before
"but even if mine is a dream......the love that lois and i share is real"
mean he restoring his hope,so he get power to do this
he even said"leaving shards of hell behind me"and i have been prove hell is literally contain infinite universes.

Superman thought he could get a hold of the universe formations had he just controlled his own thoughts. This is also backed up by him subconsciously inserting Lois into the dreams, or outright wrecking the dreams once something triggered him.
https://imgur.com/oif1rwB

Leaving the shards of Hell that he was smashing. How is this a difficult concept?
Think of the realities as windows, and Superman is smashing them leaving glass behind. All of those individual Hells were called Hell multiple times. We don't assume he was smashing the entirety of Hell just because pieces of Hell were left behind. They were shards of the realities he was smashing.
At least I think that's what you're saying.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
he call it illusion is connect to he said before
"but even if mine is a dream......the love that lois and i share is real"
mean he restoring his hope,so he get power to do this

Do you really think bringing up the concept of love being real between Superman and Lois really helps prove anything was accomplished via raw power?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
he even said"leaving shards of hell behind me"and i have been prove hell is literally contain infinite universes.
https://i.imgur.com/hvNkCfN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/a3wGBcM.jpg

And are you implying that Superman was smashing every universe in Hell? Am I reading that correctly? It's a little confusing, but I believe that to be the case.

Neron wasn't throwing Hells at him from child molesters and Nazis en masse. Superman was smashing through the personalized Hells Neron was using against him. It wasn't the entirety of Hell Neron was using, it was just specialized Hells for Superman. We see this in the background as well.
So while they may have seemed "Endless," it doesn't mean we can no limits fallacy it into every single Hell that has ever been created since the dawn of time.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and superman also said"the eseence of your UNIVERSE"
and joker later proves he literally destroying all timestream/universes,so if you want argueing about that,then this is meaningless,since dc all universes essentially come from dreams/thoughts.
again.opposite is superman spirit form is more fragile than physcial form
"bodiless wisp"
https://i.imgur.com/yrX7kmn.jpg

Especially when you seem to be saying Superman destroyed an infinite amount of universes equal in scope to the "real" universe... Anti-Monitor Superman over here.

On that last part, the "thought form bodiless wisp" Superman smashed an infinite amount of universes physically... is your argument. Think about that.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and you can't say it just require the willpower to come back,parallax did the same thing to spectre,and indeed count on it to destroying/imprisoning spectre or at least delay spectre hundreds of thousands years.this plot come from the same writer who writting superman been imprison at the void.which mean this also relative to power
https://i.imgur.com/ETpbEzZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9u3rI2R.jpg
and actually i don't really care about goku and superman who is stronger,i just counter you this just a willpower feat

"Little by little"

We saw Superman getting effected... Superman's "bodiless wisp," but Lois' love came through before it could take effect to the same degree as Spectre. Also the metaphysical idea of erasing a being's existence is not the same as say physically enduring entropy. Superman's spirit wasn't being dissolved... yet. He was losing who he was, but it didn't happen in a way to possibly effect his durability yet. The durability of his "bodiless wisp" mind you.

This is assuming it was the same Void. And also, Superman even calls that Neron's universe as well which you've pointed out numerous times, and makes it very questionable. Especially in conjecture with the Spectre scans, but I digress.

And yes, Spectre talking about transcending his limited view and breaking the constraints of his individual identity don't exactly divorce it from being a willpower feat, and certainly don't put it into a physical power sort of feat. Spectre even attributes it to his idea being bigger than the Void as well. Superman, and Superman/Lois' love is the most powerful story/idea in DC, which even you tried to point out.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
well,since i explain to you that bubble is mean quantum dream(and specifically joker usurp his dream to replace/remake reality with exactly proves this universe is as real as anything,why,because all emperor joker event happens in joker dream universe,and joker is uses mxy power to achieve it,so essentially this prove my point,smashing dream universes requires not just willpower,but also power)
smashing endless realities is smashing endless realities,why ask this question?and this writer also writting like i post,superman survived a black hole which destroying universe,and defeat a universes death.so why surprising about he smashing endless realities?

Because I don't care about the black hole feat at all. And trying to contrast a universal durability feat to smashing endless fully fledged universes doesn't work. It doesn't prove things happened in the way you say they did. Surviving a universal destruction is not the same as destroying essentially a multiverse as a "bodiless wisp"

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and as a reference about this feat,you even could look dematteis other comics.
consciousness can create secondary realities no less tangible than the primary one.
https://i.imgur.com/mdf8uwh.jpg
and look back to dc,also said creation/main universe is just another dream,same situation apply to all other universes,so you asking how big or real is essentially asking how big/real is dc universe(s)?
https://i.imgur.com/9Ra3aId.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kEeiQNX.jpg

That doesn't mean all dreams are the same size even if though. What about that don't you get?

If that was the case, the Dreamer of the main DC universe simply created a stronger dream. Simple. Considering they are theoretically omnipotent, they should be able to create a stronger, bigger, and more cohesive dream than "Derrick the child Molester" who created his own universe where he's stuck in a single room and gets plowed up the ass by a donkey.

Again, why would you think dreams that are created simply to torture people would be comparable to full fledged universes that hold omnipotent beings in them? Just because something might share a similar name, that doesn't make it equal. Kryptonians, humans, worlds, suns, universes, dreams, multiverses, God, penises, etc. They all vary in size, power, and girth.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
or you looking at other comics,dream universe also had been prove it as real as main universe
superman and justice league
dreamverse is real
https://i.imgur.com/6E0gta1.jpg
dreams within dreams,realities within realities
https://i.imgur.com/5LmXs2E.jpg

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Uh... no?

That's a huge non sequitur. Even if the main universe were a dream along the same vein, that doesn't mean that the little bubble universe HUMANS are dreaming up to torture themselves is anywhere near the same size. These dream Hells don't have people tending to them in the same capacity as the main universe, they don't have working laws of physics or static laws, etc. They are created by one being to torture themselves. That's it.

Why would Hell allow normal humans to create dimensions comparable to the main universes in an infinite capacity?

Prove it basically.

Creation itself could be a dream (although it is clearly separate and that little sentence doesn't retcon the entire nature of the universe), but the fact that even in your example - they separate the planes from physical and mental - shows it's different. Superman literally states that the physical plane won't work, Mxy says they need to go to mental, and Supergirl says they need to enter his soul. It's not the same at all.
Not only that, but Abin Sur was getting his head bitten off, among everything else. Because, it wasn't real and it didn't abide by normal laws.

He was speaking of Hell, and all the individual "universes" there, and how Joker controls them all. Indicated by Satanus being a God in all the universes, Satanus trying to send them into a personalized version of Hell, and him saying that any Hell he could send them to wouldn't be worse than the one Joker had planned.

I'm not sure calling full fledged DC sized universes "bubbles," and "personalized universes -- our individual illusions and fancies" is a thing though.

Literal bubble universes. Backed up by them being created by humans, and you not actually showing the size of these universes besides trying to liken them to the main ones via the "dream" non sequitur.

Superman thought he could get a hold of the universe formations had he just controlled his own thoughts. This is also backed up by him subconsciously inserting Lois into the dreams, or outright wrecking the dreams once something triggered him.
https://imgur.com/oif1rwB

Leaving the shards of Hell that he was smashing. How is this a difficult concept?
Think of the realities as windows, and Superman is smashing them leaving glass behind. All of those individual Hells were called Hell multiple times. We don't assume he was smashing the entirety of Hell just because pieces of Hell were left behind. They were shards of the realities he was smashing.
At least I think that's what you're saying.

Uh... what?
How does that...

Do you really think bringing up the concept of love being real between Superman and Lois really helps prove anything was accomplished via raw power?

And are you implying that Superman was smashing every universe in Hell? Am I reading that correctly? It's a little confusing, but I believe that to be the case.

Neron wasn't throwing Hells at him from child molesters and Nazis en masse. Superman was smashing through the personalized Hells Neron was using against him. It wasn't the entirety of Hell Neron was using, it was just specialized Hells for Superman. We see this in the background as well.
So while they may have seemed "Endless," it doesn't mean we can no limits fallacy it into every single Hell that has ever been created since the dawn of time.

What the omnipotent on all planes of existence Joker did, that does not prove that it's applicable to Superman smashing Hell.
Joker, and that comic literally separate the physical plane from the dreams as well. It doesn't exactly help. And all this Hell shenanigans are not accomplished by living physical beings in all the examples.

Especially when you seem to be saying Superman destroyed an infinite amount of universes equal in scope to the "real" universe... Anti-Monitor Superman over here.

On that last part, the "thought form bodiless wisp" Superman smashed an infinite amount of universes physically... is your argument. Think about that.

"A void beyond all voids"

"Little by little"

We saw Superman getting effected... Superman's "bodiless wisp," but Lois' love came through before it could take effect to the same degree as Spectre. Also the metaphysical idea of erasing a being's existence is not the same as say physically enduring entropy. Superman's spirit wasn't being dissolved... yet. He was losing who he was, but it didn't happen in a way to possibly effect his durability yet. The durability of his "bodiless wisp" mind you.

This is assuming it was the same Void. And also, Superman even calls that Neron's universe as well which you've pointed out numerous times, and makes it very questionable. Especially in conjecture with the Spectre scans, but I digress.

And yes, Spectre talking about transcending his limited view and breaking the constraints of his individual identity don't exactly divorce it from being a willpower feat, and certainly don't put it into a physical power sort of feat. Spectre even attributes it to his idea being bigger than the Void as well. Superman, and Superman/Lois' love is the most powerful story/idea in DC, which even you tried to point out.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Joker had power on a higher scale than anything in the universe. He's not exactly the best example to use to try and say Superman did the same tier of feat as... ?

Because I don't care about the black hole feat at all. And trying to contrast a universal durability feat to smashing endless fully fledged universes doesn't work. It doesn't prove things happened in the way you say they did. Surviving a universal destruction is not the same as destroying essentially a multiverse as a "bodiless wisp"

A Marvel comic.

That doesn't mean all dreams are the same size even if though. What about that don't you get?

If that was the case, the Dreamer of the main DC universe simply created a stronger dream. Simple. Considering they are theoretically omnipotent, they should be able to create a stronger, bigger, and more cohesive dream than "Derrick the child Molester" who created his own universe where he's stuck in a single room and gets plowed up the ass by a donkey.

Again, why would you think dreams that are created simply to torture people would be comparable to full fledged universes that hold omnipotent beings in them? Just because something might share a similar name, that doesn't make it equal. Kryptonians, humans, worlds, suns, universes, dreams, multiverses, God, penises, etc. They all vary in size, power, and girth.

I don't even plan to look into this as I doubt the context is even near the same.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Uh... no?

That's a huge non sequitur. Even if the main universe were a dream along the same vein, that doesn't mean that the little bubble universe HUMANS are dreaming up to torture themselves is anywhere near the same size. These dream Hells don't have people tending to them in the same capacity as the main universe, they don't have working laws of physics or static laws, etc. They are created by one being to torture themselves. That's it.

Why would Hell allow normal humans to create dimensions comparable to the main universes in an infinite capacity?

Prove it basically.

Creation itself could be a dream (although it is clearly separate and that little sentence doesn't retcon the entire nature of the universe), but the fact that even in your example - they separate the planes from physical and mental - shows it's different. Superman literally states that the physical plane won't work, Mxy says they need to go to mental, and Supergirl says they need to enter his soul. It's not the same at all.
Not only that, but Abin Sur was getting his head bitten off, among everything else. Because, it wasn't real and it didn't abide by normal laws.

He was speaking of Hell, and all the individual "universes" there, and how Joker controls them all. Indicated by Satanus being a God in all the universes, Satanus trying to send them into a personalized version of Hell, and him saying that any Hell he could send them to wouldn't be worse than the one Joker had planned.

I'm not sure calling full fledged DC sized universes "bubbles," and "personalized universes -- our individual illusions and fancies" is a thing though.

Literal bubble universes. Backed up by them being created by humans, and you not actually showing the size of these universes besides trying to liken them to the main ones via the "dream" non sequitur.

Superman thought he could get a hold of the universe formations had he just controlled his own thoughts. This is also backed up by him subconsciously inserting Lois into the dreams, or outright wrecking the dreams once something triggered him.
https://imgur.com/oif1rwB

Leaving the shards of Hell that he was smashing. How is this a difficult concept?
Think of the realities as windows, and Superman is smashing them leaving glass behind. All of those individual Hells were called Hell multiple times. We don't assume he was smashing the entirety of Hell just because pieces of Hell were left behind. They were shards of the realities he was smashing.
At least I think that's what you're saying.

Uh... what?
How does that...

Do you really think bringing up the concept of love being real between Superman and Lois really helps prove anything was accomplished via raw power?

And are you implying that Superman was smashing every universe in Hell? Am I reading that correctly? It's a little confusing, but I believe that to be the case.

Neron wasn't throwing Hells at him from child molesters and Nazis en masse. Superman was smashing through the personalized Hells Neron was using against him. It wasn't the entirety of Hell Neron was using, it was just specialized Hells for Superman. We see this in the background as well.
So while they may have seemed "Endless," it doesn't mean we can no limits fallacy it into every single Hell that has ever been created since the dawn of time.

What the omnipotent on all planes of existence Joker did, that does not prove that it's applicable to Superman smashing Hell.
Joker, and that comic literally separate the physical plane from the dreams as well. It doesn't exactly help. And all this Hell shenanigans are not accomplished by living physical beings in all the examples.

Especially when you seem to be saying Superman destroyed an infinite amount of universes equal in scope to the "real" universe... Anti-Monitor Superman over here.

On that last part, the "thought form bodiless wisp" Superman smashed an infinite amount of universes physically... is your argument. Think about that.

"A void beyond all voids"

"Little by little"

We saw Superman getting effected... Superman's "bodiless wisp," but Lois' love came through before it could take effect to the same degree as Spectre. Also the metaphysical idea of erasing a being's existence is not the same as say physically enduring entropy. Superman's spirit wasn't being dissolved... yet. He was losing who he was, but it didn't happen in a way to possibly effect his durability yet. The durability of his "bodiless wisp" mind you.

This is assuming it was the same Void. And also, Superman even calls that Neron's universe as well which you've pointed out numerous times, and makes it very questionable. Especially in conjecture with the Spectre scans, but I digress.

And yes, Spectre talking about transcending his limited view and breaking the constraints of his individual identity don't exactly divorce it from being a willpower feat, and certainly don't put it into a physical power sort of feat. Spectre even attributes it to his idea being bigger than the Void as well. Superman, and Superman/Lois' love is the most powerful story/idea in DC, which even you tried to point out.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
but neither you hasn't prove these dreaming universes not as big as main universe,

I've asked you a simple question multiple times:

Why would people create a full fledged universe simply to torture themselves?

Can you answer that, or will you simply just keep repeating yourself and try to apply a large non sequitur to your argument? Why is it the same size? Because they're dreams? Why are dreams the same size?

You're using a completely "featless" universe to try and compare it in sheer scope to the main universe. We don't know the dimensions of these things. All we know is they've been referred to as bubble universes, and they don't show infinite depth like a real universe.

It's up to you to show those specific universes are fully universal in scope.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
actually in spectre,had pinpoint that everyone is god/creator to create our own universe like god himself
https://i.imgur.com/AZuwuls.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tKL27iT.jpg

And those scans follow the line of logic that every action a creature does spins off a parallel universe. That's fine, but that's taking a pre-existing universe and splitting it to mold to the choice. And this takes place in REALITY, not in a spirit realm devoid of new choices and old universes.

The difference is, in Hell, they don't have a choice to spin off a new universe based on their actions. Their actions are done, all they have is thoughts to mold a universe out of. Their current thoughts, or past thoughts are creating a Hell to torture them for all eternity. They aren't physical beings that interact with other physical beings and effecting a fixed "reality."

They're essentially in a void creating "universes" out of their own thoughts.

VS

All matter already exists, but a universe splits off to account for a being that chose to murder a child instead of letting it walk home from school.

Do you see the difference?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
joker need mxy power to achieve emperor joker this event,and later superman also is battling joker at physical level,he only once go to mental is at the story end,superman pinoint joker obsession to batman.so this also just prove my point,this not just need willpowr but also raw power
and about "bubble" i haven been explained(spectre,and also dematteis his other comics)

You want me answer this seriously?

Superman isn't as powerful Emperor Joker, and even if he was, Emperor Joker has powers that transcend simple raw might to warp all reality...

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
we didn't assume he smashing entire hell,but his smashing endless realities,

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
well,superman power relative to his emotion,this been said by byrne,and also this issue writer dematteis also writting superman where is thy sting,and in that story,superman also when he remember lois,then he wreckaged universes death,similar plot

The feats aren't even close to comparable in power going by your interpretation first off. Second, it's not even close to the same thing.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
i mean hell contain infinite universes,,and superman smashing one of hell infinite universes,because every thought/dream creating a same real universe,and dreams within dreams,realities within realities,so essentially,is really infinite within infinite.superman smashing one of infinite universes didn't surprising.(and if you considering like timelines,dimensions etc,will be huge infinite within infinite Hierarchies.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
"this whole dreamverse......was inadvertently created by him(atom)"
"but....how can we be alive in a dream?it feels so real!"
"for all practical purposes it is REAL!"
"dreams within dreams"
"realities within realities"
those sentences all i quote from comic
and i use a marvel comic example because is the same writer,this i have been said before.

You see to think every single dream is exactly the same no matter the surrounding context around it. But yes, Inception level dreams involving realities within realities and other functioning beings is a vastly different set of circumstances than people in Hell torturing themselves away from the rest of reality in bubble universes.

Hence why I don't want to search up the context because I doubt there's any correlation besides the word "Dream."

Unless Superman is now being stated to have smashed fully fledged universes - that they themselves had other fully fledged universes within themselves - in an infinite capacity?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and neron brought superman is "absolute nothing","my thoughts bleed out of me" "soon to be erased" "i become nothing"and also again mind you this is the same writer,and background,description is similar to spectre's,and neron pinoint superman will be erased.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
spectre said"i'm connected to the logoz that god merged me with",mean this is require raw power.

I have no doubt that Spectre could have broken out due to raw power, but the story made it seem to be more than that. More metaphysical, and not due to sheer might. Same with Superman for that matter. Love is powerful enough to break all boundaries. It's why Lois reached him, and it's why Superman broke out.

I'm not doubting the power required to do something of this nature, but rather if Superman DID use raw power to break out due to the nature of everything. And I think it's fair to say that the only thing stronger than Superman is his willpower.

I don't think anything there was a physical feat, as nothing was actually "real" as in physical, but I do believe it applicable to his mental fortitude. Do you understand?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and i never said about superman physically smashing it,i said superman has the power to smashing it.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
superman literally withstanding erase from existence's dream(all universes beginning),and smashing endless realities/universes from all universes beginning point.a beastly feat,both for durable and strength(or maybe plus speed,he literally flying through from a place below all universes/all universes beginning)

Also, so Superman didn't physically smash it is what you're saying? So, how do you attribute it purely to raw power?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
and btw,you scan is just another prove to support hells/universe is conduit by our own thought.and also this is dematteis always trying to say,in spectre,he pinpoint everyone/thing is god,god is everyone/thing,and in man of tomorrow,demotteis trying to explain neron/satan is our own negative thoughts/emotion/dream like you scan said
""there are many hells.and if each one of them is formed by our own perceptions(and which superman just experienced)
"there are many hells....as there are neronS"
"just a dream.....like creation itself"
"he's the darkness in men's minds .....given breath and form"
"that soon he'll find the one REALITY i won't be able to resist"
https://i.imgur.com/0oUwVZr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8mO3kIP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MYvqG2w.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BtGTU2I.jpg

Bran is in here owning.

Originally posted by carver9
Bran is in here owning.

Bran, I thought you were doing well. And then this.

Carver being KMC's Bizarro and all, maybe you are wrong. 💃

Originally posted by cdtm
Bran, I thought you were doing well. And then this.

Carver being KMC's Bizarro and all, maybe you are wrong. 💃