Mutants vs. Super Soldiers

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Just because they might not be able to damage the shield itself, it does not mean they can't get past it to tag Steve. Cap's not untouchable, even with shield in hand.

Sure, but who's gonna tag him? Wolverine isn't skilled enough, and Cable even if he hits Cap won't pack enough power to keep him down. Plus Cap is more skilled than Cable.

DP is fast and skilled enough but not strong enough to block hits from Cap. He tries it with his swords there's a good chance they'll break.

That leaves, Deathstrike, so they'd better hope she pairs up with Cap. Actually it would be best if she pairs up against WS and try to finish him fast enough to help against Cap.

So in the h2h fight does the nanite suits also include the kinetic energy absorption/blasts, because that would seem like a pretty decisive factor in both of the matches.

Also their is Wolverine's weirdly inconsistent feats to take into account, are we using the Origins version/x3/weapon x beserker rage(Apoc)/the stuff he did in "Wolverine". See his h2h stats are all over the place.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sure, but who's gonna tag him? Wolverine isn't skilled enough, and Cable even if he hits Cap won't pack enough power to keep him down. Plus Cap is more skilled than Cable.

DP is fast and skilled enough but not strong enough to block hits from Cap. He tries it with his swords there's a good chance they'll break.

That leaves, Deathstrike, so they'd better hope she pairs up with Cap. Actually it would be best if she pairs up against WS and try to finish him fast enough to help against Cap.

Deadpool can stab through concrete and metal with his swords without them breaking, so they are quite sturdy. Also, he doesn't need to directly block. He is fast enough to dodge, or deflect hits, instead of blocking outright. And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets. But he can visibly perceive and follow them, and even take a few steps after one, which is still better than the Super Soldiers.

How do you know repeated hits from the cyborg arm won't have a lasting effect on Steve? Repeated hits from similar limbs have had a visible effect on him in the past (as Carthage pointed out, that arm can casually tear an armored door off its hinge). Also, Cable carries knives, as shown in DP2. He even stabs Wade in the shoulder at one point. And if Cap gets his shield, I am assuming Cable is allowed to use his as well.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sorry but no.

Sorry, but yes.

First of all, the mutants are all susceptible to getting knocked out with enough blunt trauma. We've seen Wolverine lose consciousness before, and we've seen Deadpool and Cable on the verge of blacking out.

Deadpool has literally blown himself to pieces without getting knocked out, and he's taken hits from Juggernaut, who hits harder than everyone on the Super Soldier team combined multiplied by twenty. Cable also took hits from the Juggernaut without passing out (I forgot he was the fourth here though he can actually be knocked out or killed by team two).

When was Deadpool on the verge of blacking out, aside from when he first acquired his powers and nearly blew himself up to escape, which was after like a weekend of horrible torture? I can't recall.

As far as Wolverine, you're referring to him being temporarily knocked out by a bullet right? He's also taken hits far harder than what Cap can dish out without passing out.

Besides, Deadpool can still get dismembered, and then he'll be completely helpless then.

But he's much faster than anyone on team 2.

As for his speed, remember that he only cut that one bullet in his movie and got shot by the rest.

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20bpjtCbCz0&feature=youtu.be&t=101

Cable fires something like nineteen or twenty bullets at Deadpool in rapid succession. We see that, even after the first one which Deadpool blocks, that the sparks from his sword indicate that he was blocking quite a few.

He then only has six bullet wounds on him. So he blocked somewhere 13/19 or 14/20. Not one of the Super Soldiers could replicate that feat.

Ok, maybe he blocked a few, but still hot hit a lot. What that means is that although it's a good speed feat, he does NOT move as fast as bullets.

Apparently he does.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Deadpool_2:_Wade_cuts_a_bullet

Given that his first swing was done after the bullet was fired, that he literally twirled the blade a couple of times as it approached him (with his sword visibly moving faster than the bullet), and then cut it in half, yeah that sounds about right.

Moving as fast as bullets means he can cut every single one.

That's just not true at all my friend. Muhammad Ali was much faster than George Foreman, but he couldn't avoid or block every single punch he threw. Given that Cable can with a tiny movement alter the trajectory of his bullets, as opposed to Deadpool who has to make large movements to block each one, Deadpool can easily be that fast while still getting hit by a relative few.

It means he's fast but also depends on luck and timing to make those cuts.

It means he is over twice as fast as anyone on team two my man, probably more like three times or more. Given that there is film evidence that Deadpool can not only see bullets in flight, but actually perceptibly run after them, evidence favors Deadpool being a legitimate bullet timer.

Warning: video has big spoilers for Deadpool 2 for those who haven't seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34LHRsiaCD8

Deadpool's gaze actually follows the bullet, his eyes locked on it the entire time. He can't outrun the bullet, but he can perceive it and, as the other scene shows, can react to and deflect them using his arms.

Anyway long story short, the mutants still don't have a way to get past the nanite suits or Cap's shield. The SS team is still stronger and the mutants are all susceptible to KO or dismemberment.

Wolverine and Deathstrike can likely get past the Nanite suits tbh. As far as Cap's shield goes, Deadpool can easily get past it consider his superior speed. Wolverine could as well, given his ability to fight shit!Deadpool and deflect his attacks.

Now granted, I am operating under the assumption that round 1 allows melee weaponry and claws. If I'm wrong, I do think the Super Soldiers would take it.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets.

I am, because he is, at least in smaller movements like attacking, swinging a sword, etc. He can't run as fast or faster than a bullet like Flash or Quicksilver can, sure.

It's frankly pretty much indisputable. His sword visually is faster than the bullet Cable fires at him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Deadpool can stab through concrete and metal with his swords without them breaking, so they are quite sturdy. Also, he doesn't need to directly block. He is fast enough to dodge, or deflect hits, instead of blocking outright. And, btw, literally no one said earlier that he is as fast as bullets. But he can visibly perceive and follow them, and even take a few steps after one, which is still better than the Super Soldiers.

How do you know repeated hits from the cyborg arm won't have a lasting effect on Steve? Repeated hits from similar limbs have had a visible effect on him in the past (as Carthage pointed out, that arm can casually tear an armored door off its hinge). Also, Cable carries knives, as shown in DP2. He even stabs Wade in the shoulder at one point. And if Cap gets his shield, I am assuming Cable is allowed to use his as well.

Of course the cyborg arm will have an effect on Steve after repeated hits, I just don't think he can land that many hits. I mean, do you really consider Cable to be Cap's equal in skill? And WS had a knife as well, and I consider WS a better fighter than Cable too. Cap barely had any wounds from that knife.

As for DP, I'll address your points tomorrow. Too sleepy to do research.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I am, because he is, at least in smaller movements like attacking, swinging a sword, etc. He can't run as fast or faster than a bullet like Flash or Quicksilver can, sure.

It's frankly pretty much indisputable. His sword visually is faster than the bullet Cable fires at him.

You are now but, technically, at the time you hadn't yet (yes, I am being pedantic). But I gotta admit, you make a damn good case for it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course the cyborg arm will have an effect on Steve after repeated hits, I just don't think he can land that many hits. I mean, do you really consider Cable to be Cap's equal in skill? And WS had a knife as well, and I consider WS a better fighter than Cable too. Cap barely had any wounds from that knife.

As for DP, I'll address your points tomorrow. Too sleepy to do research.

Why is it such a stretch to you? As Nemebro pointed out, Cable is either fast or skilled (or a combination of both) enough that he can land plenty of hits on someone that has multiple feats of reacting to bullets. We also see him easily steamroll through all the prison security that got in his way when he first arrives, without taking a hit in return IIRC. Hell, he was even able to do pretty well against Domino, despite her BS luck powers turning every scenario in her favour.

He might not be an exact equal, but I don't see why he isn't skilled enough to compete.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Why is it such a stretch to you? As Nemebro pointed out, Cable is either fast or skilled (or a combination of both) enough that he can land plenty of hits on someone that has multiple feats of reacting to bullets. We also see him easily steamroll through all the prison security that got in his way when he first arrives, without taking a hit in return IIRC. Hell, he was even able to do pretty well against Domino, despite her BS luck powers turning every scenario in her favour.

He might not be an exact equal, but I don't see why he isn't skilled enough to compete.

Tell me honestly: do you think Cable can outfight WS in pure h2h?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Tell me honestly: do you think Cable can outfight WS in pure h2h?

Based on all the evidence already posted, I won't discount the possibility. And unless you can actually post proper counter evidence to the speed argument Nemebro posted, there isn't much else to say.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on all the evidence already posted, I won't discount the possibility. And unless you can actually post proper counter evidence to the speed argument Nemebro posted, there isn't much else to say.

Then let's address it. This is the clip in question, timestamp 0:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2OJkfDYRlE

The first bullet cut is a good, valid feat. I won't argue against that, it's the succeeding bullet deflections that I will address. You will notice that DP starts moving his swords in an X pattern and at no point in the shooting did he vary his pattern, make small adjustments, or move his swords in any way that proves he was actively tracking the bullets' trajectory and moving to intercept them. He was simply moving his swords in a pattern, covering the most likely areas to get hit given their proximity and Cable's line of sight... and hoping to block some shots.

Cable decides to keep shooting from relatively the same angle. He changes the gun's elevation a few times but such minute changes at close distance are still aimed for the torso (i.e. the area covered by slashing blades).

Of course, there's also the obvious fact that DP isn't moving in superspeed. We can clearly see those swords moving and based on the sounds of shots fired and movement of everything else we can conclude that this wasn't done in slow motion.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Then let's address it. This is the clip in question, timestamp 0:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2OJkfDYRlE

The first bullet cut is a good, valid feat. I won't argue against that, it's the succeeding bullet deflections that I will address. You will notice that DP starts moving his swords in an X pattern and at no point in the shooting did he vary his pattern, make small adjustments, or move his swords in any way that proves he was actively tracking the bullets' trajectory and moving to intercept them. He was simply moving his swords in a pattern, covering the most likely areas to get hit given their proximity and Cable's line of sight... and hoping to block some shots.

Cable decides to keep shooting from relatively the same angle. He changes the gun's elevation a few times but such minute changes at close distance are still aimed for the torso (i.e. the area covered by slashing blades).

Of course, there's also the obvious fact that DP isn't moving in superspeed. We can clearly see those swords moving and based on the sounds of shots fired and movement of everything else we can conclude that this wasn't done in slow motion.

Simply because you can't detect tiny variations or specific timing means it was just a pattern and dumb luck, even though we know that things look a lot different from his perspective?

And ignoring what Nemebro pointed out, in that during the slowmo, we do see his arm move at comparable speed to the bullet. Or the Vanessa scene, where his perceptions are clearly showcased again? Is your argument seriously he used superspeed to cut the first bullet (as you acknowledge it as valid) and then just decided to stop bothering and go to human speed for the rest of it, because you can see the blade move?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Simply because you can't detect tiny variations or specific timing means it was just a pattern and dumb luck, even though we know that things look a lot different from his perspective?

And ignoring what Nemebro pointed out, in that during the slowmo, we do see his arm move at comparable speed to the bullet. Or the Vanessa scene, where his perceptions are clearly showcased again? Is your argument seriously he used superspeed to cut the first bullet (as you acknowledge it as valid) and then just decided to stop bothering and go to human speed for the rest of it, because you can see the blade move?

No, my argument is that when a character showcases abilities for 99% of the movie and then shows contradictory abilities for 1% of the movie, we don't base their entire skill and powerset on the 1%. I'm not arguing against that one scene because there's nothing to argue: that was indeed a display of superspeed.... superspeed that he doesn't display in pretty much all his other scenes. CBMs like these like to exaggerate scenes for cool factor, I'm pretty sure they never intended to portray DP as a super speedster. And I'm sure as hell that they never intended to portray Cable as a speedster too, as you and Nemebro are seemingly implying.

Like I said, if DP was truly as fast as that first bullet cut scene showed, then he would have had no issues cutting all the other bullets. Nemebro's Ali vs. Foreman is a false comparison as all that shows is that Ali is faster than Foreman, not that Ali is faster than Foreman's hand velocity.

As for the rest of the bullet deflections, you can slow down that video all you want, you won't find any deviations or erratic movements from DP's pattern. Again, there's no indication that he was actively tracking bullets and moving his blades to intercept them. You may not like it but the scene backs up my statement. If you want to claim otherwise, onus will be on you to prove it, since what is shown in that scene is simply that he is moving his swords in a pattern... and not even a very fast one at that.

Deadpool a speedster??? Hell no.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Deadpool is far faster than even the fastest Super Soldier here, seeing as he can perceive and chase bullets and can cut them in half. Given Cable's ability to stonewall and fight Deadpool hand to hand he'd scale to him. Wolverine was able to somewhat keep up with an amped Wade in X-Men: Origins as well, and given that Lady Deathstrike is faster than Wolverine neither should have trouble dealing with the MCU team's speed.

As far as round 1 goes, the difference is that while the MCU team has two people that no one person on team one can put down, not a single character in the Fox team is going down 1v1 to anyone in the MCU team. Bucky and Cap will be the first to die, and from there BP and KM won't be handling the four unkillable mutants. They'll be swarmed. If you interpret round 1 as allowing melee weapons, IMO it becomes even more of a stomp.

👆

I am taking the Mutants to win all the way...

Originally posted by FrothByte
No, my argument is that when a character showcases abilities for 99% of the movie and then shows contradictory abilities for 1% of the movie, we don't base their entire skill and powerset on the 1%. I'm not arguing against that one scene because there's nothing to argue: that was indeed a display of superspeed.... superspeed that he doesn't display in pretty much all his other scenes. CBMs like these like to exaggerate scenes for cool factor, I'm pretty sure they never intended to portray DP as a super speedster. And I'm sure as hell that they never intended to portray Cable as a speedster too, as you and Nemebro are seemingly implying.

Like I said, if DP was truly as fast as that first bullet cut scene showed, then he would have had no issues cutting all the other bullets. Nemebro's Ali vs. Foreman is a false comparison as all that shows is that Ali is faster than Foreman, not that Ali is faster than Foreman's hand velocity.

As for the rest of the bullet deflections, you can slow down that video all you want, you won't find any deviations or erratic movements from DP's pattern. Again, there's no indication that he was actively tracking bullets and moving his blades to intercept them. You may not like it but the scene backs up my statement. If you want to claim otherwise, onus will be on you to prove it, since what is shown in that scene is simply that he is moving his swords in a pattern... and not even a very fast one at that.

Dude, the film's implication, with more than one scene explicitly showing his slowed-down perceptions, is clear. Even if you want to hand-wave the other shots away, it does not change the fact that the initial bullet cut + Vanessa scene > than feats Team MCU has shown.

He cut the first bullet, showing very clear superspeed (seeing as you are insisting on applying visual speed here) during the slowmo scene (again, refer to what Nemebro pointed out where we visually can see him making flurries and such while the bullet is coming at him). He shows very clear enhanced speed and reflexes during the Vanessa scene as well. So, he very clearly can move that fast when he wants to. Not doing so (according to you) doesn't change the fact that he can and has. If he didn't move that fast for the other shots, after showing the clear ability to do so initially, then he either choose not to, or PIS. So, yes, he is that fast by screen feats. It's called high-end showings. You use high-ends when you argue for characters you like (don't pretend you don't), so not seeing why high-ends for Wade aren't valid here.

And, btw, I don't see anyone arguing that he is a speedster, like Flash or Quicksilver. In fact, both Nemebro and I have specifically stated that he can't run about like those guys can, or even run as fast as/faster than a bullet. The argument is that he has bullet-time speed/reflexes with smaller movements more suited to combat. Which you are arguing against, despite him cutting a bullet in half onscreen in one scene, and being able to track and follow one perceptibly in another.

And he's always been fast. He was flipping over gunfire and such during the bridge scene from the first film as well, showed enough speed, perception and coordination to aim and headshot three people with one bullet while flipping through the air, and matched pace with someone who was explicitly stated as having superhuman reflexes (Ajax). So, it's not like it's just focusing on DP2 feats.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And, btw, I don't see anyone arguing that he is a speedster, like Flash or Quicksilver. In fact, both Nemebro and I have specifically stated that he can't run about like those guys can, or even run as fast as/faster than a bullet. The argument is that he has bullet-time speed/reflexes with smaller movements more suited to combat. Which you are arguing against, despite him cutting a bullet in half onscreen in one scene, and being able to track and follow one perceptibly in another.

And he's always been fast. He was flipping over gunfire and such during the bridge scene from the first film as well, showed enough speed, perception and coordination to aim and headshot three people with one bullet while flipping through the air, and matched pace with someone who was explicitly stated as having superhuman reflexes (Ajax). So, it's not like it's just focusing on DP2 feats.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Cable shot DP from about 6 feet away. DP was twirling his sword while the bullet was approaching him and didn't start with his cut till the bullet was at least 2/3 of the way to hitting him.

To be able to accomplish that feat, he would need to actually have legit super speed. Faster than Wonder Woman at the very least. There are only 2 ways this makes sense:

1. He has legit superhuman speed
2. That scene is exaggerated

You can't claim it was simply fast reflexes, because he would still have needed to move his arm at ridiculously superhuman speeds to make that cut with the bullet that near to him.

So before I even reply to your earlier post (I deleted my earlier reply to reply to this instead) I need to know what your stance is. Are you saying that DP does indeed have superhuman speed?

Because you realize this is the exact argument at H1 makes whenever he claims Ozy has superspeed right?

P.S. - I couldn't find a clip of that scene with Vanessa you're referencing. Please post a vid if you have one so we could look at it properly.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Cable shot DP from about 6 feet away. DP was twirling his sword while the bullet was approaching him and didn't start with his cut till the bullet was at least 2/3 of the way to hitting him.

To be able to accomplish that feat, he would need to actually have legit super speed. Faster than Wonder Woman at the very least. There are only 2 ways this makes sense:

1. He has legit superhuman speed
2. That scene is exaggerated

You can't claim it was simply fast reflexes, because he would still have needed to move his arm at ridiculously superhuman speeds to make that cut with the bullet that near to him.

So before I even reply to your earlier post (I deleted my earlier reply to reply to this instead) I need to know what your stance is. Are you saying that DP does indeed have superhuman speed?

Because you realize this is the exact argument at H1 makes whenever he claims Ozy has superspeed right?

P.S. - I couldn't find a clip of that scene with Vanessa you're referencing. Please post a vid if you have one so we could look at it properly.

So you're basically saying """This doesn't fit my perception of how things should be do it's not valid"""
C'mon man

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
So you're basically saying """This doesn't fit my perception of how things should be do it's not valid"""
C'mon man

No, I'm saying that you need superhuman speed to accomplish that feat, not JUST superhuman reflexes. Therefore if we use that scene as a basis for DP's powerset (even if it contradicts all his other feats) then that means we'll be attributing superspeed as one of his powers.