Originally posted by StyleTime
The 1-4% figure was made up for this hypothetical example though. Without something specific to the issue, it's hard to comment on this.You were going in an interesting direction for a moment, but it ultimately sounds like "Tolerate our intolerance. " That was a faulty argument back during the gay marriage debate, and remains so now.
You're essentially saying "it's easier to let bigots remain bigots, so force the marginalized group to change instead." You aren't trying to "change a group on a fundamental level" by telling them to quit ostracizing a marginalized group. You are, however, changing a group on a fundamental level by telling gender queer people to change who they are despite imposing on no one. Additionally, if discrimination is fundamental to your identity, then you should change.
Cisgendered folks don't have to become trans to acknowledge their existence. I don't see how we're being forced to "change on a fundamental level" here. We still get to go about our day exactly as before, but now we're calling Michael, Michelle. It's like...the most minor, boring thing in the universe.
I literally yawned and dozed off just thinking about it.
There's a fine line between:
1. I accept and tolerate your weirdness. It's your life, however you want to live it, and that is what I accept, if not your world view wholesale.
2. I affirm your beliefs. I accept your world view.
I can refuse to accept a post op transsexual is a woman, and refuse to bully/allow bullying.
The current tactics seem to demand across the border affirmation, which simply puts people on the defensive.
Shame is NOT a good tactic for social change. All it does is force people to choose between defensively digging in, or admitting defeat.
That may not be an answer you want to hear, but people have their pride. Asking someone to give up on tradition, and accept a "new normal" will only promote hostility:
Originally posted by cdtm
There's a fine line between:1. I accept and tolerate your weirdness. It's your life, however you want to live it, and that is what I accept, if not your world view wholesale.
2. I affirm your beliefs. I accept your world view.
I can refuse to accept a post op transsexual is a woman, and refuse to bully/allow bullying.
The current tactics seem to demand across the border affirmation, which simply puts people on the defensive.
Shame is NOT a good tactic for social change. All it does is force people to choose between defensively digging in, or admitting defeat.
That may not be an answer you want to hear, but people have their pride. Asking someone to give up on tradition, and accept a "new normal" will only promote hostility:
Originally posted by Emperordmb
"I am not denying your humanity, I just do not believe you are the gender to which you claim to be"
"I am not denying your right to protest, I am just defending the honor of the flag I believe in."
"But it's not about the flag."
"When you do it in front of the flag, it's about the flag to us."
Originally posted by Silent Master
Gender and gender roles are two different things.
Originally posted by cdtm
I can refuse to accept a post op transsexual is a woman, and refuse to bully/allow bullying.
Originally posted by cdtm
There's a fine line between:1. I accept and tolerate your weirdness. It's your life, however you want to live it, and that is what I accept, if not your world view wholesale.
2. I affirm your beliefs. I accept your world view.
The current tactics seem to demand across the border affirmation, which simply puts people on the defensive.
Shame is NOT a good tactic for social change. All it does is force people to choose between defensively digging in, or admitting defeat.
That may not be an answer you want to hear, but people have their pride. Asking someone to give up on tradition, and accept a "new normal" will only promote hostility:
If you're just talking about the discussion nationally/worldwide, then in some instances I'd agree. Reasoned discourse is the best way, assuming people are willing to change.
Originally posted by cdtm
"I am not denying your right to protest, I am just defending the honor of the flag I believe in.""But it's not about the flag."
"When you do it in front of the flag, it's about the flag to us."
Instead, that last line says, essentially "well, we're going to pretend it's about the flag anyway, so hah."
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean aside from Beni calling those who disagrees with him analogous to flat-earthers?
Originally posted by Surtur
Anyways nope, it's not a social construct.
I'm not a fan of using animals to predict human behavior. We try too hard to read ourselves into the behaviors we like and ignore the ones we dislike. We can find a study supporting practically any viewpoint with animals.
Socialization affects the behavior of rhesus monkeys too.
Rhesus monkeys eat mostly plants with ocassional insects thrown in. Would you be willing to go vegetarian because they do it? Living in a polyamorous communal society with a bunch of other folks sharing your girlfriend and raising your kids? I'm being colorful, and I'm not saying any of these are bad, but I doubt most people would be up for them.
Animal behavior doesn't translate 1:1 to humans. We cherry pick animal behavior and say "see! We do that! We're just animals!" all while disregarding the shit we don't like. I'm not a fan of that. Posting on an internet forum would be like rocket science to a dumbass rhesus monkey.
Originally posted by cdtm
"I am not denying your right to protest, I am just defending the honor of the flag I believe in.""But it's not about the flag."
"When you do it in front of the flag, it's about the flag to us."
It doesn't matter what its about to you. If you don't want them doing it in front of the flag, then don't bring out the flag in the first place.
And for the record, this whole, "standing in front of the flag is key to keep american society together" nonsense is horseshit. The tradition was only introduced in 2009 when the department of defense started paying the nfl to start this tradition:
http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/
When you defend the "honor of the flag" you defend the honor of government propaganda.
It's not patriotism, it's paid propaganda, and by telling football players they can't publicly protest the government on the field, the NFL has confirmed their status as the government's puppet.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
😆It doesn't matter what its about to you. If you don't want them doing it in front of the flag, then don't bring out the flag in the first place.
And for the record, this whole, "standing in front of the flag is key to keep american society together" nonsense is horseshit. The tradition was only introduced in 2009 when the department of defense started paying the nfl to start this tradition:
http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/When you defend the "honor of the flag" you defend the honor of government propaganda.
It's not patriotism, it's paid propaganda, and by telling football players they can't publicly protest the government on the field, the NFL has confirmed their status as the government's puppet.
The flag's history with the NFL isn't the point, though. The flag is a symbol to many.
Isn't a key argument of social justice, that one's individual experiences matter?
Why shouldn't we respect the feelings of those who claim, for them, it's about the flag?
Originally posted by Surtur
Anyways nope, it's not a social construct.
The flag's history with the NFL isn't the point, though. The flag is a symbol to many.Isn't a key argument of social justice, that one's individual experiences matter?
Why shouldn't we respect the feelings of those who claim, for them, it's about the flag?
"I do not accept your world view" is not equivalent to "i do not accept you protesting in a manner that happens to offend my world view"
If anything those who are shutting down protests are akin to those who shut down the people who say " I just do not believe you are the gender to which you claim to be"".
If you support people saying what they think about gender, then you shouldn't take issue with people kneeling in front of the flag.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
😆It doesn't matter what its about to you. If you don't want them doing it in front of the flag, then don't bring out the flag in the first place.
And for the record, this whole, "standing in front of the flag is key to keep american society together" nonsense is horseshit. The tradition was only introduced in 2009 when the department of defense started paying the nfl to start this tradition:
http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didnt-stand-national-anthem-2009/When you defend the "honor of the flag" you defend the honor of government propaganda.
It's not patriotism, it's paid propaganda, and by telling football players they can't publicly protest the government on the field, the NFL has confirmed their status as the government's puppet.
Personally, I've never felt my patriotism being attacked by someone else not standing for the National Anthem. Even people who burn the US flag do not affect my patriotism; I think they're stupid as I think flag burning is stupid, but I don't feel insulted or less American because of it. Maybe I'm just that patriotic where another can't make me question my own patriotism or maybe I'm just not a little b***h looking for something irrelevant to me to whine over while covering it up as patriotism.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Except that you've ****ed the analogy."I do not accept your world view" is not equivalent to "i do not accept you protesting in a manner that happens to offend my world view"
If anything those who are shutting down protests are akin to those who shut down the people who say " I just do not believe you are the gender to which you claim to be"".
If you support people saying what they think about gender, then you shouldn't take issue with people kneeling in front of the flag.
Accept abortion is wrong.
Accept marriage is between men and women.
Accept kneeling in front of the flag, isn't disrespecting the flag.
That's how they're similar. The people feel how they feel, and are being asked to feel differently.
Of course, it's equally valid to say:
Accept I don't accept you're a woman.
And they may be deeply offended. At that point, not much to be done except agree to disagree, or agree to limit/end the relationship.
My main issue with the flag protests, is that they're clearly intending to provoke a reaction, while pretending "Nah."
Of COURSE they want to offend. Or they wouldn't do it in front of the flag at all. Flag protests, in all cases, are INTENDED to provoke a reaction from others.
Call it a pet peeve, but I don't believe in intentionally trying to provoke others. For any reason. It simply isn't necessary.
Sometimes, you can't help to, either way, but generally attempting to respect boundries is the ideal.
Originally posted by RobtardYou see I'm not patriotic at all. I admire what my culture did in the past. It created the basis for almost everything. From discovering how to induce current to the basic mechanical model of the universe and theory of evolution. It gave the world real Football, Boxing etc and the dominant language. Modern democracy and legal systems... but that was then, a few of us bravely still walk the world like Titans, with education from Universities as old as the US... most watch YouTube and strictly come dancing. We have become Babylon.
Personally, I've never felt my patriotism being attacked by someone else not standing for the National Anthem. Even people who burn the US flag do not affect my patriotism; I think they're stupid as I think flag burning is stupid, but I don't feel insulted or less American because of it. Maybe I'm just that patriotic where another can't make me question my own patriotism or maybe I'm just not a little b***h looking for something irrelevant to me to whine over while covering it up as patriotism.