SOR Revan vs. ROTS Sidious

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes, but that hardly negates the strength of Malachor V which is stated to echo out across space. Nihilus' hunger is symptomatic of his exposure to the planet. It has the same effects on people as he does.

The Nathema Ritual isn't relevant at all, the void of the Force would literally kill anything and absorb it given enough exposure. You had to will yourself to continue existing or be absorbed by the void. The void literally existed as the absence of the Force, which completely negated the Force's will. Or rather, Tenebrae was doing so effortlessly by existing. Ziost's the same.

I don't see your point here. Is it to prove that post-Nathema Vitiate > Nihilus? This doesn't do that at all, because peak Nihilus has grown far past Malachor. Or is your point that Vitiate is more impressive because he could will himself to keep existing? Why wouldn't the same whataboutisms you cast against the unbalancing feat not also apply here? It's not even a proper analogy anyway because the unnatural nature of Nathema (from where Vitiate draws his power and nature) is one of kind and not just degree - Nihilus may have gained less power per planet but he ate way more planets, and the Force isn't necessarily going to say "OK after X planets you're now a void".

Tenebrae ceased to be a Sith centuries ago. As he found Valkorion long before the game and perhaps even the novel, assuming his new identity as he shed Sith dogma.

OOU sources call him a Sith, he acts as the Sith Emperor, uses Sith power, and leads Sith armies. The fact that he also has another title doesn't preclude him from also being a Sith any more than Palpatine wasn't both Dark Lord of the Sith and Supreme Chancellor.

Not that any of the Sheev = most powerful quotes are infallible in the first place.

There are so many of them that it becomes kind of ridiculous to try to ignore them.

Oh and Sheev being so powerful is because of the imbalance, a feat achieved under circumstamces that render it irrelevant to either Sith involved. That Plagueis was utterly incapable of replicating Tenebrous' power until after said imbalance occurred indicates that Tenebrous was as strong as the Banite line was going to get.

So you just established that being able to replicate certain midichlorian feats is an exact measurement of power. Congratulations, now Plagueis >>>>>>>>> Valkorion.

And besides, Plagueis and Sidious both grow far more powerful past the unbalancing feat.

Plagueis wouldn't have surpassed him, Sidious wouldn't have either.

Based on what?

What's even more condemning for the two is the outright statement that the Son's descent to the dark-side made the Sith more powerful.

Actually, this is a point in Sidious's favor because that power amp is permanent given that it seemingly doesn't go away when the Son dies. So congrats - Sidious now also has the amp from a Mortis Anchorite.

So please tell me more about how the imbalance is some extremely impressive feat for Sheev, when it isn't even really true. It's not even true to say it is all him either, given Lucas specifically states Vader is in the equation of the imbalance and it's further arguable that his shift to the light side is what brings back balance to the Force.

A lot of the unbalancing happens either before Anakin was born or while he's a child, and the balance gets restored at the point where Sidious dies, not at the point where Vader shifts to the light side (and he is on the light side the entire PT, yet the Force is still unbalanced...). Yes, Vader is part of the equation...because he's the one that kills Palpatine.

Meanwhile, we know that the unbalance can't be from politics because the milestones line up with Force events and not political ones, and we know that they don't have an easier baseline because it's been stated that the dark side was actually stronger in ancient times pre-unbalancing, and the Jedi Order had formed an entire galaxy-wide light side bubble. We also can be fairly sure from Plagueis that at least the initial two major unbalancing efforts were done on sheer exertion of Force power and not fancy rituals (though even as a ritual it would be one of the most impressive ever). Sidious therefore has the ability to affect the cosmic force on a galactic (universal?) level, which is a far grander application of the dark side on a far larger scale than anything Vitiate has ever done - Vitiate spent centuries doing intense rituals on a nexus and all he did was create some thunderstorms and make Dromund Kaas's nexus a little stronger.

When Sheev returns in DE, there's nothing like an imbalance going on, there's no indication that his mere presence shifts the balance.

Pretty sure it's stated that the balance shifts again when he reveals himself. As he doesn't really want to be identified before that, sure there's an active component to the shroud - that doesn't change the fact that it's a Force feat. Shrouding the dark side is likely less meaningful to him in the context of DE than when he's trying to outmaneuver the Jedi anyway.

It's almost as if he's not literally causing the imbalance but is one of numerous factors involved.

Given that he and Plagueis meditating on an island directly cause it to happen, then Sidious alone directly causes it to happen, then his death directly causes it to go away, it's pretty clear that Sidious (and Plagueis) is the direct cause of the imbalance. The possibility that he's using some sort of Force technique doesn't change the fact that he's doing it using his own power, and that it's more impressive than anything Vitiate has done.

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Meanwhile, I see no active arguments for Vitiate over Sidious given the latter's direct accolades, cosmic power, overwhelmingly greater combat prowess, and not being that long before two of the most ridiculous feats in Star Wars (Byss and Lusankya).

What is this? Sheev godstomps.

*Both sides use questionable power scaling quotes to form an argument*

This thread is a perfect example of how messy statements can get when you only rely on them.

It's neither. Darth Nihilus being a symptom of a less dangerous and potent effect on the Force than Tenebrae was a manifestation of is one of four indications that support the statement by the narrative that Meetra couldn't imagine a being as powerful as Tenebrae. The point is one of many. Meetra directly compares the severity and makes it clear that Nathema's void > Malachor V's nexus.

What's being made very clear is that what Tenebrae has done is entirely more potent than what Malachor V and Nihilus did. One absorbs the Force energy of everything across the entire planet, rendering colour and even time irrelevant. The others corrupt the Force intensely and twist it to the dark side. The novel goes out of its way to make this clear.

Which is why this is so impressive, Tenebrae drained Nathema and then prevented the Force's attempts to fill that void in the Force. The same thing occurs on Ziost, where it's stated to be the dark-side taken to its greatest extreme. It isn't like Katarr which healed afterwards. They became dead spots in the Force where Tenebrae wholly absorbed their flora and fauna, creating the aforementioned void which could not heal until he ceased to existed, even as a spirit. It's outright and effortless countering of the Force's will.

His being a Sith was retconned, he used the Sith Empire until it was no longer useful and had other motives the entire time. At best you can argue that he maintained an identity as a Sith, but as of the novel and perhaps even earlier, he was no longer a Sith and had reached the apex of knowledge long before this point, to an extent that he'd surpassed all others before him. So you can argue ROTS Sidious > pre-Revan!Vitiate all you like, if you want. Not that it's relevant given his most major power growth occurs after this.

There are numerous sources stating the same thing because he's been around since before I was born. But given Leland Chee states that there's no canonical ranking nor a Sith that they consider the canonically most powerful. All it really means is that Sheev has some pretty great evidence in his favor. You're more than welcome to use them as such, but when the main authority of Legends content for two decades says that it isn't irrefutable, and given he personally debunked the Plagueis blurb, then he seems to have a track record on the matter. It's up for debate.

Er, what? Tenebrous' strength of will is what allowed him to do so. Plagueis outright surrendered to the inevitable will of the Force. But even if that were true..

We have Darth Drears and Darth Scabrous showing their own rather impressive understanding of midichlorians and immortality. Those two being very much mid-tier Sith in the empire. Then we have the Dread Masters, who are so far beyond Drear and Scabrous that they might as well be non-Force sensitive. The Dread Masters displayed incredible mastery over immortality, resurrection, increasing the Force sensitivity of others as well as driving trillions irrepairably insane and turning entire planets into hellacious dark side nexus; the latter two achieved without actually exerting any power.

Given the Dread Masters were insignificant next to even a pre-Ziost Tenebrae, nothing Plagueis has done with midichlorians is special in TOR. Hell, even Sidious said sorcery was the apex of power, not Plagueis' experiments.

It doesn't go away because the events of Mortis didn't stop having an effect on the balance of the Force. But I'm glad to see you seemingly accept that Sheev was perpetually amped by the Son causing his own imbalance.

Here's the issue, the imbalance was caused because Sidious and Plagueis meditated intensely for months, concentrating their power until they united into a single entity. That's immensely more power than anything either one of them weilded normally and I honestly doubt either could replicate themselves, ever.

But no, Lucas specifically states that Anakin destroying the Sith to fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One, includes himself and the Emperor. He's very clear about that.

Tenebrous' achievements being so far beyond Plagueis' capabilities; and Luceno really drove home that Plagueis was getting nowhere in his research, essentially stating it was impossible. Whereas with Tenebrous it was apparently easy. That he needed an imbalance he could never have caused by himself, as well as however many years of further experiments to finally catch up; noting that he only finally replicated and surpassed Tenebrous' greatest feats of will prior to his death. Yeah, the implication that Tenebrous would never be surpassed by Plagueis without that imbalance is very clear. With Sheev it is a lot more ambiguous but I doubt he'd have gotten far more powerful than Tenebrous was without that imbalance.

Meanwhile, we have a bunch of indications that Tenebrae was the source of major dark side power throughout his reign. It's not a big deal in TOR. Tenebrae doesn't care about shifting the balance of the Force, he wants to devour the Force and become a god. Hell, 'balance of the Force' has become a gimmick for a gameplay mechanic that players in recent updates get to fvck around with in-game. Lol.

Tenebrae causing entire planets to become voids in the Force, and his being stated to be capable of fvcking around with the Force's ability to exist or not, is far more impressive than causing it to shift to the dark side. He's literally controlling it at this point.

Apologies for formatting, I'm on mobile.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's neither. Darth Nihilus being a symptom of a less dangerous and potent effect on the Force than Tenebrae was a manifestation of is one of four indications that support the statement by the narrative that Meetra couldn't imagine a being as powerful as Tenebrae. The point is one of many. Meetra directly compares the severity and makes it clear that Nathema's void > Malachor V's nexus.

What's being made very clear is that what Tenebrae has done is entirely more potent than what Malachor V and Nihilus did. One absorbs the Force energy of everything across the entire planet, rendering colour and even time irrelevant. The others corrupt the Force intensely and twist it to the dark side. The novel goes out of its way to make this clear.

Which is why this is so impressive, Tenebrae drained Nathema and then prevented the Force's attempts to fill that void in the Force. The same thing occurs on Ziost, where it's stated to be the dark-side taken to its greatest extreme. It isn't like Katarr which healed afterwards. They became dead spots in the Force where Tenebrae wholly absorbed their flora and fauna, creating the aforementioned void which could not heal until he ceased to existed, even as a spirit. It's outright and effortless countering of the Force's will.

I don't see how this addresses my point, which is that 1) much of Nathema went into extending Vitiate's lifespan, and 2) Nihilus consumes several planets after Malachor, so you cannot compare Malachor to Nathema to prove Vitiate immediately after Nathema is more powerful than Nihilus in his prime.

But again, given that you are employing this exact line of reasoning, we can compare both Nathema and Malachor to Plagueis and Sidious's unbalancing feats, and the latter's are incomparably grander in scope. While Nathema fights the Force's "will" (as lots of things do) on a localized level the same way ysalamiri can, Plagueis and Sidious (and later Sidious himself) not only drastically shift the balance of the cosmic force on a galactic scale but also later pose such a threat that the Force conceives The Chosen One to stop them. Likewise, Sidious does this on his own while we now know Vitiate needed help for Nathema (in addition to the 8000 sith lords), which was itself an elaborate ritual. Ditto for Ziost.

His being a Sith was retconned, he used the Sith Empire until it was no longer useful and had other motives the entire time. At best you can argue that he maintained an identity as a Sith, but as of the novel and perhaps even earlier, he was no longer a Sith and had reached the apex of knowledge long before this point, to an extent that he'd surpassed all others before him. So you can argue ROTS Sidious > pre-Revan!Vitiate all you like, if you want. Not that it's relevant given his most major power growth occurs after this.

So Palpatine wasn't really the Supreme Chancellor? Just how many Sith Lords do you think there have been that didn't really care about the "Sith code" beyond the extent to which it benefitted them?

Several sources call Vitiate a Sith. It seems pretty clear to me.

There are numerous sources stating the same thing because he's been around since before I was born. But given Leland Chee states that there's no canonical ranking nor a Sith that they consider the canonically most powerful. All it really means is that Sheev has some pretty great evidence in his favor. You're more than welcome to use them as such, but when the main authority of Legends content for two decades says that it isn't irrefutable, and given he personally debunked the Plagueis blurb, then he seems to have a track record on the matter. It's up for debate.

I certainly hope you're referencing some sort of more concrete statement by Chee than some 9 am response to one of your various twitter accounts' loaded questions to refute the 22+ published and officially licensed accolades on Sidious's power. I suppose nothing is "irrefutable", but it's pretty overwhelming in the face of no active evidence to the contrary.

Er, what? Tenebrous' strength of will is what allowed him to do so. Plagueis outright surrendered to the inevitable will of the Force. But even if that were true..

So Tenebrous could overpower the cosmic force's will, and by extension post-unbalancing Plagueis did too? Great! And why does it even matter if Plagueis couldn't have surpassed Tenebrous without the unbalancing (based on nothing but your assertion) again?

Of course, Tenebrous himself is astronomically more powerful than his master who was able to penetrate the light-side bubble generated by the collective Jedi Order, so the Banites were already beginning to do things beyond what Vitiate could imagine.

We have Darth Drears and Darth Scabrous showing their own rather impressive understanding of midichlorians and immortality.

*Citation needed* There is no case for either of them no-selling Darth Sidious's Force lightning at point blank range with no barriers from sheer midichlorian manipulation, or spurring the Force itself to create the literal messiah figure to stop them. Eating someone's heart or whatever isn't a valid comparison. There's no reason to think they knew a thing about manipulating midichlorians.

Those two being very much mid-tier Sith in the empire. Then we have the Dread Masters, who are so far beyond Drear and Scabrous that they might as well be non-Force sensitive. The Dread Masters displayed incredible mastery over immortality, resurrection, increasing the Force sensitivity of others as well as driving trillions irrepairably insane and turning entire planets into hellacious dark side nexus; the latter two achieved without actually exerting any power.

Yeah, please show me what they did on their own power, and preferably something that TFU Shaak Ti couldn't do.

Hell, even Sidious said sorcery was the apex of power, not Plagueis' experiments.

???

It doesn't go away because the events of Mortis didn't stop having an effect on the balance of the Force.

The two major unbalancings of the Force in Plagueis happen exactly after their meditation session and Plagueis's death, the conception of the Chosen One happens exactly during Plagueis's attempts to conceive Anakin, and then the restoration of the balance happens exactly after Palpatine's death. Then I've explained why they weren't operating on an easy baseline either. Were these just bizarre coincidences?

But I'm glad to see you seemingly accept that Sheev was perpetually amped by the Son causing his own imbalance.

Lmfao what? I'm saying that your own argument is just a feat for Sidious because it's a permanent amp by your own admission.

Here's the issue, the imbalance was caused because Sidious and Plagueis meditated intensely for months, concentrating their power until they united into a single entity.

LMFAO - so you try to wank Vitiate when he has untold decades to prep a massive ritual involving 8000 sith lords and an uber-machine, and the Dread Masters when they're literally using external artifacts with intense prep, but then you try to lowball Sidious and Plagueis for the grandest feat to that point in Star Wars because they have to "meditate intensely" for months?

That's immensely more power than anything either one of them weilded normally and I honestly doubt either could replicate themselves, ever.

Um, except Sidious does it himself by the end of TPM...

But no, Lucas specifically states that Anakin destroying the Sith to fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One, includes himself and the Emperor. He's very clear about that.

So what? The unbalance existed before Vader did, so Sidious is clearly the dominant variable.

Tenebrous' achievements being so far beyond Plagueis' capabilities; and Luceno really drove home that Plagueis was getting nowhere in his research, essentially stating it was impossible. Whereas with Tenebrous it was apparently easy. That he needed an imbalance he could never have caused by himself, as well as however many years of further experiments to finally catch up; noting that he only finally replicated and surpassed Tenebrous' greatest feats of will prior to his death. Yeah, the implication that Tenebrous would never be surpassed by Plagueis without that imbalance is very clear. With Sheev it is a lot more ambiguous but I doubt he'd have gotten far more powerful than Tenebrous was without that imbalance.

Thanks for arguing that midichlorian manipulation is a function of power. 👆

Tenebrae causing entire planets to become voids in the Force,

Yeah, nexus-ritual-third party aided planetary rituals are clearly comparable to galactic (universal?) unbalances and machinations that cause the creation of Space Jesus.

**** this thread is becoming more of a slaughter than Sidious vs Revan would be mmm

👆

I honestly feel bad.

Seriously though, Ellimist is toying with it at this point.

Just like Sidious will toy with Revan 👆

Nah but AP and I are chill, right AP? 🙂

Sorry for not getting around to this, my foreleg was broken. Just gotten home.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
*Both sides use questionable power scaling quotes to form an argument*

This thread is a perfect example of how messy statements can get when you only rely on them.

@The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era [1 on 1], and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you [if this is your line-of-thought].

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely.

@[B]The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era [1 on 1], and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you [if this is your line-of-thought].

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought. [/B]

😆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely.

@[B]The Ellimist

Per your line-of-thought, Palpatine's strength is such that he retained the Imbalance (of the Force) with his mere existence. In other words, Palpatine is a cosmic level being in terms of strength, right?

Given your line-of-thought, Palpatine would have split atoms, a planet, or reduced Master Yoda to dust with a mere thought; Palpatine should have destroyed the entire Jedi Order with bare hands or something. Yet, we see Palpatine struggling to defeat top-of-the-line Jedi of his era [1 on 1], and he called upon the Clones to eradicate the Jedi Order for him.

I do not recall either Mace Windu or Yoda having Cosmic level impacts at individual capacity. Yet, each was able to go toe-to-toe with Palpatine in a fight. Palpatine was also just as vulnerable to a lightsaber as anybody else in his time.

So the whole 'Balance of the Force' stuff translate into what exactly? Nothing substantial for any character in terms of strength, mind you [if this is your line-of-thought].

I recall an event in the Legacy era in which the Balance of the Force began to shift due to a Force-user taking a dip in the Pool of Knowledge. And this happened when Luke Skywalker was at his prime and Abeloth was in the picture. So these two behemoths had negligible impact on the Balance of the Force?

Do you even understand the mechanics of the Force as in Living and Cosmic? Do you understand that the balance of the Force have shifted over time due to actions of Force-users and even normal beings throughout the timeline?

Extremely problematic line-of-thought. [/B]

Member The Ellimist is on-point here. Palpatine have evolved into omnipotent entity and dominated COSMOS on a scale never seen before. He would annihilate planets with a thought. Have a look:

The most reviled and dangerous [color=blue]entity in the galaxy, Emperor Palpatine used his powers of manipulation to gain control of the cosmos on a scale never seen before.[/color] Using his high-ranking political position on Coruscant to garner political power and working insidiously behind the scenes, he systematically eliminated enemies and set ally against ally, ensuring his inevitable rise from Supreme Chancellor to [color=blue]all-powerful Emperor.[/color] One of his earliest acts of unspeakable evil was Order 66, aka the Great Jedi Purge, which all but extinguished this noble race.

From (Star Wars: Topps Chrome - Emperor Palpatine)

Originally posted by Azronger
😆

Your making Sidious sound more powerful than Abeloth @Legend.

I think a serious argument can be made for Revan winning here, but at the same time he could also be weaker than Maul and Kenobi, on average I would say Sidious wins via an unknown but clear extent that results in his victory and Revan's defeat.

Originally posted by victreebelvictr
Your making Sidious sound more powerful than Abeloth @Legend.

Abeloth have nothing on Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarkTransfer69
I think a serious argument can be made for Revan winning here, but at the same time he could also be weaker than Maul and Kenobi, on average I would say Sidious wins via an unknown but clear extent that results in his victory and Revan's defeat.

Seriously now?

To assert that Revan have more power than Palpatine but less than Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi?

You sir are an absolute RETARD, my friend. Even bigger one than S_W_LeGenD.

And you lost every ounce of respect in my eyes due to this single idiotic point. Well done.