Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't see how this addresses my point, which is that 1) much of Nathema went into extending Vitiate's lifespan, and 2) Nihilus consumes several planets after Malachor, so you cannot compare Malachor to Nathema to prove Vitiate immediately after Nathema is more powerful than Nihilus in his prime.
Except that's only a singular line of thought that helps cement the statement that Nathema made Tenebrae >> Nihilus.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
But again, given that [b]you are employing this exact line of reasoning, we can compare both Nathema and Malachor to Plagueis and Sidious's unbalancing feats, and the latter's are incomparably grander in scope.[/B]
Except it isn't fighting the Force's will, it is Tenebrae literally denying its ability to exist across two entire planets. Tenebrae required Zildrog to kill everything, whilst he used a ritual to absorb everything that died. Post-Nathema Tenebrae required no such aid, we know that because as a spirit he was capable of multitasking with his powers to absorb enough energy to restore his power to a degree that he could single-handedly death field the entire planet and then used the same ritual to absorb all of the energy there too.
Shifting the balance of the cosmic Force so heavily it became an imbalance, was achieved by outwilling it after both Sidious and Plagueis channelled their full collective powers for months. Post-Nathema Tenebrae is doing so by himself, by merely existing; even in a spiritual form. He's then repeating the feat in a spiritual form without any aid at all.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Palpatine wasn't really the Supreme Chancellor? Just how many Sith Lords do you think there have been that didn't really care about the "Sith code" beyond the extent to which it benefitted them?Several sources call Vitiate a Sith. It seems pretty clear to me.
All of those sources are outdated. His status as a Sith is more like Darth Sidious controlling the seperatists from the shadows. He isn't actually affiliated with them, he controls them through puppets as a means of distracting the galaxy from his new empire and new identity. Infact, his affiliation with the Sith was long since a ruse since long before even Revan:
Centuries before our story begins, Tenebrae becomes Vitiate, becomes Emperor of the Sith, and leads the survivors of the Sith into exile to Dromund Kaas. He rules directly for many years.As years go by, he becomes more and more dissatisfied with the Sith Empire he's created. He finds himself increasingly distanced from the Sith philosophy that first brought him to power and sees it as a dead end (as he expresses several times in KOTFE/KOTET) and, with the immense power at his disposal, begins striking out in search of something better. This is when his "long periods of silence" begin.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I certainly hope you're referencing some sort of more concrete statement by Chee.
"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.""Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinato Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system."
- Leland Chee
Originally posted by The Ellimist
So Tenebrous could overpower the cosmic force's will, and by extension post-unbalancing Plagueis did too? Great! And why does it even matter if Plagueis couldn't have surpassed Tenebrous without the unbalancing (based on nothing but your assertion) again?
Because it goes to show that Tenebrous was the peak of the Banite Sith's potential. Plagueis fully surrenders to the impossibility of replicating Tenebrous' mastery and feats. Plagueis, and eventually Sheev, becoming as powerful as they were, was a consequence of the imbalance. They were capable of achieving feats that were previously impossible.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Of course, Tenebrous himself is astronomically more powerful than his master who was able to penetrate the light-side bubble generated by the collective Jedi Order, so the Banites were already beginning to do things beyond what Vitiate could imagine.
Yeah, they really weren't. The Jedi Order of KotOR through to SWTOR, suffered their own limited abilities due to Tenebrae. Many quotes indicate the dark side had a very strong hold on the galaxy at this time. Then there's his constant control over the living Force. Which I find more impressive.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
*Citation needed*
The point isn't that Drear or Scabrous had been particularly great with Midicholorian Manipulation. It's that the indication of their knowledge on the matter bodes very well for the likes of the Dread Masters who were infinitely more powerful and masterful over all aspects of the Force.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, please show me what they did on their own power, and preferably something that TFU Shaak Ti couldn't do.
Shaak Ti influencing a planet of living Force energy stated to be very susceptible to influence by powerful Force-users; as per TFU:CG, is not comparable to turning numerous planets into Oricon-like hellscapes. They've repeatedly shown the ability to resurrect the dead, and outright state that their power makes them immortal, yeah. Their vast powers are absolutely indicative of immense mastery over alchemy, sorcery, immortality and the manipulation of Force potential.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
???
In BoS, Sidious compares Plagueis' mastery over life to Syn's. But he chooses to perfect Syn's alchemy rather than midicholorian manipulation, which Sheev says Plagueis was too focused on.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The two major unbalancings of the Force in Plagueis happen exactly after their meditation session and Plagueis's death, the conception of the Chosen One happens exactly during Plagueis's attempts to conceive Anakin, and then the restoration of the balance happens exactly after Palpatine's death. Then I've explained why they weren't operating on an easy baseline either. Were these just bizarre coincidences?
No, they were not. However, Sheev's initial death may have brought balance (or it's Anakin and the death of the Sith as a whole.) Yet, this proves:
1.His influence on the Force couldn't survive in an incorporeal state, whereas Tenebrae's does.
2.His return in Dark Empire is only stated to make a random side character feel the dark side in the galaxy again. Hardly a cosmic imbalance.
So, do tell me, why is Sheev in by far his strongest incarnation, incapable of returning the imbalance with his mere existence? His far weaker incarnations, per your logic, could. Perhaps it is due to the fact that it's not so dependent on Sheev.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao what? I'm saying that your own argument is just a feat for Sidious because it's a permanent amp by your own admission.
Except you've entirely missed the point. Sidious having a permanent amp, which isn't actually what it is, is irrelevant. The Son's descent to the dark-side would've been an infinitely more potent effect on the Force than anything the Sith did. That the Father confirms the Sith grew more powerful because of it is pretty damning evidence that this imbalance had numerous factors. Not just Sheev. Even Plagueis in Book of Sith states that the actual prophecy of the Chosen One is about Mortis entirely, preventing them from 'tearing the universe asunder' as he puts it.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO -
If Tenebrae's power hadn't grown to an extent that any aid his pre-Nathema incarnations had were now completely irrelevant, you might have a point. Oh and the Dread Masters' collective powers are directly derived from mastering the Phobis Devices. They're indivisibld elements, so you can hardly scream 'external amp!' on them either.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thanks for arguing that midichlorian manipulation is a function of power. 👆
Willpower is a function of power, that's the point.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, nexus-ritual-third party aided planetary rituals are clearly comparable to galactic (universal?) unbalances and machinations that cause the creation of Space Jesus.
No, but casually showing the Force the finger and telling it where it is allowed to exist or not is. How are you getting the idea that using the context of the Nathema ritual diminishes a post-Nathema Tenebrae?
Originally posted by Azronger
That's not scaling; that's just one quote
What is the scaling.