So lets talk Dragon Ball power levels.

I say:

Silver Surfer is Faster then Goku.

Hulk is stronger then Vegeta.

Gladiator is more durable then Gohan.

Prove me wrong.

Lets hear some rock solid, mesurable feats for "anyone" in the main cast. Speed, physical durability (Can they tank a punch from a physical powerhouse like Doomsday? Prove it.), combat speed, straight line speed.

And no abc crap. If you say "Jiren shook the endless void", first off I'll
point out Jiren isn't a core character.

Second, I'll dig out feats like the infinite book lift, or Spectre failing to harm Superman.

And you'll say "PIS", and I'll say "So is Goku tanking an "endless void" punch.

Because it would be. ABC logic and "PIS" arguments is commonly for "your" side, and not for "their" side. (As in, we all do it. Not accusing anyone specifically... Carver.)

None of that here, please.

And if it needs to be said, this is NOT a Vs thread. And this conversation also isn't limited to the characters I mentioned.

Comic characters are simply an easy reference point, as it's difficult to find a manga/anime character with similar power sets as a Thor or Captain Marvel.

Use anime/manga comparables (Comparable to Hulk and such) if you know of any.

The only point of this thread is to get the DB boosters to put their money where their mouth is.

Faster then "Flash"? Hell, faster then Cyborg 009 (His "accelerate
Mode" effectively froze time for a week).

I don't buy it.

💃 No surprise there.

Kind of funny how anime/manga doesn't even have rules about backing up claims, like comic Vs does.

Perhaps the new mod may want to addess that. What standards of proof determine who wins a Vs?

Afaics, it all comes down to popular opinion.

Perhaps he may. 😉

The forum rules here haven't been updated since 2005. That is one of the [many] things I'll be addressing in days to come.

As it stands, obviously tangible evidence trumps unfounded opinion. I don't think anyone would realistically question that.

By no ABC logic, are you asking for no scaling? Ie, we just ignore characters being millions of times more powerful than characters who can destroy a planet and an entire race of warriors each capable of destroying a moon with one finger?

As for why they lack feats above planetary, it's probably because they can't breath in space. However, newly Twink Goku was able to put out half the energy required to destroy the universe in an attack that Beerus had to cancel out. They've only gotten stronger from there.

Also everyone is operating at a power level able to casually break Kachi Katchin, which is a stronger form of Katchin than the one that broke the Z Sword. Daishinkan assumed it would be strong enough to withstand universal Gods of Destruction, and when it wasn't, he had it upgraded. Still wasn't enough.
Either way it was meant to be strong. Strongest metal in the multiverse iirc. Reminds me of the not strongest metal in the universe in adamantium... 😖hifty:

As for speed, we know they operate at faster than lightspeed in combat speed now. Some at that level, some far above it.

Etc. As for PIS, Dragonball doesn't wildly change writing hands all the time. It largely stays under the same team the entire time it's being made. You don't have Bendis writing Goku and then someone who's favorite character is Goku - writing Goku. That's the difference there.

Yes, no scaling. 🙂

Focusing on speed st the moment, what are the ftl feats, exactly?

Goku, for example, needed to use instant transmission to get Roshi's glasses across the world. Any Flash could have done that by pure speed (And likely beaten your average teleportor in a race)

Gotenks, at many times stronger then Cell Saga Goku, flew around the world seven or eight times (Judging by the manga speed lines) within a half hour.

Lightspeed is about seven revolutions around the Earth in a single second.

Yeah, you can argue Gotenks took a nap in that time, but that leaves us without any proof he could have done it in a second.. Maybe it took him 10 minutes, and he slept 20. Maybe he didn't sleep at all, and was boasting.

Of course, there's Whis's interstellar travel. But that's Whis... He's about as relevant to the Z cast as Molecule Man is. 🙂

Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, no scaling. 🙂

Focusing on speed st the moment, what are the ftl feats, exactly?

Goku, for example, needed to use instant transmission to get Roshi's glasses across the world. Any Flash could have done that by pure speed (And likely beaten your average teleportor in a race)

Gotenks, at many times stronger then Cell Saga Goku, flew around the world seven or eight times (Judging by the manga speed lines) within a half hour.

Lightspeed is about seven revolutions around the Earth in a single second.

Yeah, you can argue Gotenks took a nap in that time, but that leaves us without any proof he could have done it in a second.. Maybe it took him 10 minutes, and he slept 20. Maybe he didn't sleep at all, and was boasting.

Of course, there's Whis's interstellar travel. But that's Whis... He's about as relevant to the Z cast as Molecule Man is. 🙂

How exactly do you expect the feats to actually have meaning when you deny an important part of the growth of Dragonball?

And why would you even bring up HP Doomsday when you specifically said no ABC logic and no power scaling? HP Doomsday is absolutely nothing without that. So there's a conflict.

The issue with the Gotenks one is that there were constant speedlines around the Earth. You think the intention is that those speedlines stuck around for 10-20 or even 29 minutes?

Dyspo.
And I never specifically said Dragonball was faster than Flash. I said they operate at lightspeed in combat, or at least the good ones can. We know UI Goku was vastly faster than Dyspo, and it's a good assumption Jiren/MUI Goku are vastly faster than his faster form as well. The combat speed is more than adequate.

One of the fastest feats I have seen in Dragon Ball is when Whis travels across the Universes with little time whatsoever.

He is the fastest Angel after all. (Though I am not sure that he is faster than his father, but maybe.)

Here's another little mini rant on scaling:

You don't like scaling because it presents a more accurate way to judge the characters than comics. It is something largely not present in comics.
It is entirely a storytelling device in that newer is usually better, but it allows them to ramp up the threat without ramping up the damage. Characters don't have to destroy large landmasses with a flick, yet we know they are vastly more powerful than that. Characters are always growing to a point where they don't need statements to know how they measure up against the last bad guy, we just know.

Again, this is largely missing in comics. How much stronger is Superman than he was during the Byrne era? You don't know, you have no idea. You can't with any reasonable idea even begin to form an accurate conclusion to that question. However, Dragonball fans can put you in the ballpark of how much more powerful these characters are than they were, or the previous baddie. Majin Buu for example, is at least 4 times stronger than Cell. Beerus is at least 100 times stronger than SSG Goku. SS Goku on Namek was a couple hundred times stronger than a planet destroyer. Etc.

Thus it is natural for you to want to ignore that, because it doesn't effect comics to the same degree as Dragonball (it absolutely does however, as evidenced by you using Doomsday as an example). So naturally you want to rule it out. Dragonball doesn't work like that however. Power scaling like it or not, is an integral part of the series, and it gives the series a degree of accuracy as opposed to everything being Superman level but not quite.

Give me some time and I can ballpark Goku's power level anywhere in the entire series, and significant things he did at important power levels. I can explain why this means something. Can you explain why Superman can do Y but can't defeat X? Doubt it, yet you think that PIS should be applicable but power scaling shouldn't? 😂

That you can scale a Superman feat where Spectre can't hurt him (when was this), or where Doomsday is impressive? Why are both of those things impressive btw? Oh right, scaling off of Spectre's feats and scaling off of Superman's feats to give to Doomsday.

Do Dragonball characters need scaling? Maybe, maybe not. What I do know however, is that it's a huge part of Dragonball and it makes zero sense not to count it in lieu of other things here.

Well if there is series talks of reviewing Dragonball power-levels, I only hope whatever discussions don't turn into the mess that resulted in this current viewpoint for rankings:

https://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Dragon_Ball_Super)

Has no one scaled intelligence yet?

It is a very important factor of a battle you know.

Having wisdom in battle gives you the knowledge of when to hit, what your opponent will do next, and understanding how you opponent fights so you can counter their technique.

Lol @ people trying to pass DB powerscaling as a good/superior system to comparing feats. The idea that because someone's "power number" went up by a factor of five, that fighter is now five times faster, stronger, more durable, more output, and literally everything else is dumb to begin with. And it doesn't work, either, considering how often characters react to and take beatings from in, for example, their base forms (which are supposedly many thousands of times slower and less durable in some cases), against beings with much higher "power numbers."

Most Dragonball characters have little endurance in my opinion.

All Might can take most of their attacks.

Goku can’t take his wife’s criticism. 😂

@OP:

DB has a couple of good strength showings, although they're difficult to use as none of them are completely conclusive.

For instance, you have SS3 Goku punching a hole in King Kai's planet during his spar with Beerus. It's supposed to have 10x the gravitational pull of the Earth, so considering it's only the size of a large building, it would have to be incredibly dense. That said, the planet's gravity may be artificial/magical, to imitate the conditions of the original planet (which Beerus destroyed).

Then you have Goku's and Beerus's punches creating shockwaves that can be felt across realms, which is a bit hard to measure, since if a traditional shockwave was strong enough to cross the universe it would most certainly have at least obliterated the earth. And the rest of the milky way. In addition, the feat was never replicated in ensuing fights, so the whole thing is a bit shaky in general.

Then we have Beerus and Champa casually shattering planets with punches and kicks, which is a pretty clear cut demonstration of their strength being planet level at the bare minimum. That said, it's not exactly clear yet how the rest of the cast compares to them, so it doesn't quite scale cleanly to Goku/Vegeta.

Still, Hulk doesn't really have any feats (putting aside scaling, where Goku would have the advantage anyways) that are any better than these (if we're to take them at face value), to my knowledge. Especially if we classify his "world breaker" power as an energy attack, in which case he would compare extremely unfavorably to the Z-fighters.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
So you want zero scaling, yet you want to accurately judge them?
So if say Cell was packing around enough power in one attack to level a solar system and Gohan matched him, then no feats from the Buu saga can be used because they didn't operate on that level (yet were much stronger)?

How exactly do you expect the feats to actually have meaning when you deny an important part of the growth of Dragonball?

And why would you even bring up HP Doomsday when you specifically said no ABC logic and no power scaling? HP Doomsday is absolutely nothing without that. So there's a conflict.

Did I say HP Doomsday? Honestly, I was just throwing out random top tier names to try and make my point at the time. 🙂

Think of it like this:

How many improvements has Tony Stark given his armors?

And how often does that play out in increased combat effectiveness?

I mean, we just got a manga scan of Roshi's slipping Jiren punch's. A VASTLY holding back Jiren, yes, but no real proof he was holding back less against Roshi then he was against Goku (Who at the time, was amped to Blue, was he not?)

Or, to put it another way, "power levels are bullshit". 😛

And the reason why I'm trying to take scaling out of his, is partly because I want to know if they really do have feats that stand on their own (I freely admit I'm not a "comic book guy" type nerd, and can't look at something, quickly doing math in my head, and saying "HUSSAH! 2 quadrillion times C!"😉

And second, because when you argue on comic board Vs, feats are the general rule there. Bi-Beast at a million times stronger, who has no feats to back it up, is just a featless bi-beast, which is why we don't give Worldbreaker Hulk an auto win (And conversely, Carver was entirely right to call out feats for uber amped Kryptonite X Superman, who absorbed so much yellow sun he looked like Super Hulk.)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Lol @ people trying to pass DB powerscaling as a good/superior system to comparing feats. The idea that because someone's "power number" went up by a factor of five, that fighter is now five times faster, stronger, more durable, more output, and literally everything else is dumb to begin with. And it doesn't work, either, considering how often characters react to and take beatings from in, for example, their base forms (which are supposedly many thousands of times slower and less durable in some cases), against beings with much higher "power numbers."

I said power scaling is better than what comics do. It provides a better sense of accuracy of where they stand in relation to their feats. I even gave an example with Superman's growth over the years. You even brought up Hulk who is a great example of feats not synching up to his strength. He has planetary level feats, and then he has "infinite" feats, and that's about it.
Feats are good for matching other comic characters. There's no accuracy however in anything but the feat. Superman can bench press a planet one day and struggle with a building the next. There's no progression in the feats, somedays they're worse, somedays they're better. Some higher feats are done with less effort, some lower feats are done with more. Are characters getting stronger or weaker or staying the same strength? Maybe one writer never read 3/4 of the things by that character and throws a monkey wrench in there that promptly gets ignored next writer? This character got a powerup... by how much - well it's hard to tell considering he's doing worse than he ever has against a guy he fought before.

Comics don't have that x-factor that DB does. There's no way to accurately track growth and feats by anything but varying feats. Maybe a character is intended to stay the same power for 50 years yet his name is also Thor and what the **** is going on with everything? Which is why Dragonball can move away from lifting heavy shit to prove a point - because we know they're always getting better without those feats.

Yes, that is literally what the power levels do. The whole purpose of KK x 2, 3, 4, 10, 20 is that everything increases that much for example.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111266865/4985123-1264366039-37026.jpg

Using the "PIS" of Dragonball doesn't excuse how things are supposed to work. That's also covered in the whole "tortured" or lowering your ki part as well.
We've seen it time and time again where a new form or powerup allows them to hurt and overpower beings they couldn't scratch previously. Gohan's SS2, Goku's KK against Vegeta, Goku's SS over his KK against Frieza, SS3, Goku getting tapped to sleep by Beerus, yet SSG allowing him to fight evenly with a less surpressed Beerus, or even Goku training with 40 tons on his body and going SS, etc. Doubling their power levels does indeed double their strength and power output. That has remained a staple of the series.

Notice how I didn't say speed doubles however. It should, and in some cases, does, but the speed is hard to judge. They should be warp speed in combat by now but...

Originally posted by cdtm
Did I say HP Doomsday? Honestly, I was just throwing out random top tier names to try and make my point at the time. 🙂

Think of it like this:

How many improvements has Tony Stark given his armors?

And how often does that play out in increased combat effectiveness?

I mean, we just got a manga scan of Roshi's slipping Jiren punch's. A VASTLY holding back Jiren, yes, but no real proof he was holding back less against Roshi then he was against Goku (Who at the time, was amped to Blue, was he not?)

Or, to put it another way, "power levels are bullshit". 😛

And the reason why I'm trying to take scaling out of his, is partly because I want to know if they really do have feats that stand on their own (I freely admit I'm not a "comic book guy" type nerd, and can't look at something, quickly doing math in my head, and saying "HUSSAH! 2 quadrillion times C!"😉

And second, because when you argue on comic board Vs, feats are the general rule there. Bi-Beast at a million times stronger, who has no feats to back it up, is just a featless bi-beast, which is why we don't give Worldbreaker Hulk an auto win (And conversely, Carver was entirely right to call out feats for uber amped Kryptonite X Superman, who absorbed so much yellow sun he looked like Super Hulk.)

Correction, Roshi is bullshit.

I understand you want the feats on their own, but outright trying to get rid of it (power scaling) is denying a lot of underlying context to what things actually mean for later sagas. Like I said, that would mean you can safely ignore entire sagas just because no big old feat happened. Goku only got stronger than a being who kicked the dogshit out of a Cell Games Gohan+ character... doesn't matter.

They have the typical comic book feats, but again, it's not all about trying to up the last feat all the time, it's about progression even if it doesn't come out in the way of feats.

Bi-Beast is a terrible example and Carver has been carved up more times than not when he brings that up. Basically, the amp only applied to Bi-Beast when he was that size, not after he died. It would make no sense for the amp to be displayed as a size increase, yet still apply after death when him and Wendigo are small and the only thing they do is get shredded by WB Hulk. I'm not going to say whether or not they increased in power 1000 times but they did die from getting slammed into Arm's ship, so...

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Read that post again.

I said power scaling is better than what comics do. It provides a better sense of accuracy of where they stand in relation to their feats. I even gave an example with Superman's growth over the years. You even brought up Hulk who is a great example of feats not synching up to his strength. He has planetary level feats, and then he has "infinite" feats, and that's about it.
Feats are good for matching other comic characters. There's no accuracy however in anything but the feat. Superman can bench press a planet one day and struggle with a building the next. There's no progression in the feats, somedays they're worse, somedays they're better. Some higher feats are done with less effort, some lower feats are done with more. Are characters getting stronger or weaker or staying the same strength? Maybe one writer never read 3/4 of the things by that character and throws a monkey wrench in there that promptly gets ignored next writer? This character got a powerup... by how much - well it's hard to tell considering he's doing worse than he ever has against a guy he fought before.

Comics don't have that x-factor that DB does. There's no way to accurately track growth and feats by anything but varying feats. Maybe a character is intended to stay the same power for 50 years yet his name is also Thor and what the **** is going on with everything? Which is why Dragonball can move away from lifting heavy shit to prove a point - because we know they're always getting better without those feats.

Yes, that is literally what the power levels do. The whole purpose of KK x 2, 3, 4, 10, 20 is that everything increases that much for example.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111266865/4985123-1264366039-37026.jpg

Using the "PIS" of Dragonball doesn't excuse how things are supposed to work. That's also covered in the whole "tortured" or lowering your ki part as well.
We've seen it time and time again where a new form or powerup allows them to hurt and overpower beings they couldn't scratch previously. Gohan's SS2, Goku's KK against Vegeta, Goku's SS over his KK against Frieza, SS3, Goku getting tapped to sleep by Beerus, yet SSG allowing him to fight evenly with a less surpressed Beerus, or even Goku training with 40 tons on his body and going SS, etc. Doubling their power levels does indeed double their strength and power output. That has remained a staple of the series.

Notice how I didn't say speed doubles however. It should, and in some cases, does, but the speed is hard to judge. They should be warp speed in combat by now but...

The speed amps seemed to stop after the Freeza saga. And even seemed to regress, if Tenshinhan keeping Semi-Perfect in check is any indication.

Super certainly ignored speed differences between characters not Dyspo, judging by the humans, Piccolo, and Gohan all performing evenly against the same opponents..

And then there's base Goku and SSJ 2 Califula.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Lol @ people trying to pass DB powerscaling as a good/superior system to comparing feats. The idea that because someone's "power number" went up by a factor of five, that fighter is now five times faster, stronger, more durable, more output, and literally everything else is dumb to begin with. And it doesn't work, either, considering how often characters react to and take beatings from in, for example, their base forms (which are supposedly many thousands of times slower and less durable in some cases), against beings with much higher "power numbers."

Roshi blew up a moon, Vegeta didnt. Do you think Vegeta can destroy a moon?