Originally posted by RealistRacism
Ventress takes it because she's more powerful imo, but Maul probably takes sabers.
Originally posted by DarkTransfer69
Considering Maul is more powerful and that being more powerful usually leads to being better in sabers, Maul obviously wins.
I can't wait to see where this leads! ✅
Exactly. Maul was trained in the Sith tradition and Sidious himself was very proud of his training. As Dooku's part time apprentice however, Ventress would have been given only scraps of knowledge. The difference in the quality of their training is immense.
As far as inherent ability, here is no reason to think Ventress is more naturally talented or has more potential than Maul. In fact it's quite the opposite. His potential was enough to succeed Sidious, it was enough for Sidious to sacrifice his relationship with Talzin to get Maul, it was enough for him to risk drawing Plagueis' ire. Even Plagueis was amazed by young Maul's combat abilities.
It can even be argued that Maul is a prodigy second only to Anakin. Consider that he was barely in his 20s and was already clearly superior to Qui-Gon, one of the Jedi's most powerful masters.
The comparison to Dooku is even more favorable. Even as early as TPM Maul is comparable to Dooku in power, though somewhat weaker and less experienced. But he is still in Dooku's tier. But Dooku himself was considered an unparalleled prodigy by Yoda and everyone else, and he had 60 years of training on Maul.
Dooku's potential was maxed, at the time of TPM Maul was just getting started. How strong would he have been if he hadn't been cut in half and had another 20-30 years of training?
@Thor: Sources for the Jedi "always massively holding back" against Asajj?
@victre: How is being trained by Sidious really better than learning under Dooku? Before TPM, how much more did Sheev know about the dark side in comparison to the Count? Maul's training is always described as a sharpening of his physical and martial prowess, so it's not like he was being taught esoteric Sith techniques or anything that could take Ventress by surprise here. He can only really make use of basic TK and TP, lmao.
@Unbowed: I'm not sure what any of that has to do with anything. Maul learning 'Sith Tradition' is about as relevant as Asajj learning 'Nightsister Tradition' and the potential argument is questionable, as the TPM novel states that Maul is at his peak, never to become any better.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
@Thor: Sources for the Jedi "always massively holding back" against Asajj?
Really?
Lines from Obi-Wan like - You will have to do better than that My Darling.
Anakin we literally see the results when he stops holding back. He chokes her, electrocuted her, leaves her for dead multiple times.
Mace makes it clear from his dialogue shes no match for him and she runs away.
Plus you know Jedi morals in general. They of course tend not to hold back against actual Sith though with lines like - Destroy the Sith We Must!
Plus as DarkTransfer pointed out, she has actually fought Maul. A broken yet to recover Maul. And she could not even overpower him.
Plus there is their respective fights against Savage. Ventress is closer to Savage level. Maul is clearly above that. Closer to Obi-Wan or Dooku (though perhaps not their equal).
You pretend as if he hasn't done this Maul as well... So we can conclusively rank Ventress below TPM Maul because Kenobi let loose a sassy one-liner? Thanks for providing context too 👆
You mean when Anakin taps into his rage? Of course he's going to pummel her, but with morals on Asajj has always proven to be (somewhat) a match for him. I think it's clear that TCW Anakin could take Maul too, so I'm not sure why this is significant.
You mean whilst Ventress is only just starting her 'career,' if you will. The significance of this is what? She can't defeat Mace Windu? That's a big revelation. Asajj doesn't need to defeat Windu in order to prove that she could take this version of Maul... Mace never indicated he was holding back either, not when he leapt at her with a big swing whilst angrily yelling "Away Assassin!"
The quote never indicates that Maul > Ventress though... The duo were outmatched sure, but the reasoning behind that is;
A) Ventress was fighting with one lightsaber.
B) Maul goaded Kenobi into anger, thus causing the latter to become 'unbalanced.'
Ventress was 'defeated' by Savage because of his massive strength advantage (something Maul doesn't have here, or at least it isn't anywhere near as large as Opress' was) and the inability to access her second weapon.
Again, nothing suggests Savage is above Ventress when she has both lightsabers.