Originally posted by RealistRacism
George's quote claiming that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, with Anakin having his chance to do so some time in the future, is telling.
Lucas' statement that Anakin's as powerful as Sidious in ROTS and listed them both as tier nine makes it obvious they're in-league.
Or George is just referring to in-universe threats to Sidious, which Anakin wouldn't fall under until after he kills Obi-Wan.
Lucas' statement that Anakin's as powerful as Sidious in ROTS and listed them both as tier nine makes it obvious they're in-league.
He's demonstrably not as per Lucas' own words, in spite of your terrible rationalisation. The tiering system is irrelevant to Legends debates such as these; "There's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it." – George Lucas
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Nothing points to this being the case.He's demonstrably not as per Lucas' own words, in spite of your terrible rationalisation. The tiering system is irrelevant to Legends debates such as these; "There's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it." – George Lucas
Wait, then why did you bring up Lucas in the first place?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wait, then why did you bring up Lucas in the first place?
Nothing points to this being the case.
The fact Lucas has Anakin on par with Sidious as both a combatant and Force power "points to this being the case."
The tiering system is irrelevant to Legends debates such as these; "There's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it." – George Lucas
Except "those other people's world" decided that G-Canon also runs their continuity also. thumb up
Plus, why even bring up Lucas then?
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Proof?
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Anakin completely breaking Dooku's defenses in three strikes and inflicting damage on him is "almost three-shotting" in my book.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Thanks for already pointing out the 'arguably.'
One in-universe quote uses the word "arguably", while several OOU quotes don't.
But I didn't argue Anakin was as powerful or more powerful than Yoda - I just pointed out that Anakin is in his tier, which he absolutely is if there are some IU and OOU sources that claim he's as powerful, some that claim he's more powerful, and some that claim he isn't more powerful yet. That clearly demonstrates that, in sheer power, Anakin is in the same general conversation as Yoda (and given the tiering system, he's a match in sabers too). Exar Kun, however, by the lines of scaling we have is not in the same league as Yoda. Per sources he's substantially below SF Malak, who is substantially below Revan Reborn, who is below TPM Mace Windu.
George's quote claiming that you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor, with Anakin having his chance to do so some time in the future, is telling.
In addition to what Ant said, note that Lucas was giving a presumably unscripted interview. He mentions Yoda and Mace, and then in the next sentence includes Anakin too, then notes Anakin got his limbs chopped off so incorporates that into said sentence. When people are giving interviews they can not mention 100% of information in one sentence but then include some of it in the next sentence, and trying to hyper-analyze the syntax of his words here is kind of silly.
What we do have, however, are the tiering systems that were dictated by George Lucas. Given that these were formalized with deliberation and not a product of analyzing his word choice in a single interview, I'd take that as more solid.
Regarding Dooku, this is after the Count had been duelling both Kenobi and Anakin and was exhausted, whilst Anakin was "getting stronger."
As Ant points out, it was primarily Anakin whose every blow was aging Dooku by a decade or whatever Stover's prose was saying:
Skywalker was all over him.The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
I mean, come on, Anakin is clearly superior.
And he was growing stronger because he was letting go of his inhibitions. Anakin then proceeds to hand Dooku an absolute curbstomp where Tyranus can't do anything:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.
Note that this is the same Dooku who as a Jedi was in the league of TPM Mace Windu as a duelist, who was along with Yoda the most powerful Jedi in history per the fact files.
So he has superior stamina to Dooku when he draws on his rage? This is the point you're going with to prove superiority to Kun, who can stalemate the greatest Jedi of his era potentially *for hours*?
Stalemating Ulic doesn't compare to being in Yoda's tier per multiple sources.
Anakin ~ Yoda > Revan Reborn > KotOR Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Exar Kun
Originally posted by JaggarathI mean, you can make anything sound like anything if you isolate it from its entire context, namely:
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.Anakin completely breaking Dooku's defenses in three strikes and inflicting damage on him is "almost three-shotting" in my book.
-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them
-Dooku just prior to the quote you posted was reeling from a surprise assault from Skywalker and Kenobi
Full quote provided below:
"Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.
"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
Dooku thought, What?
He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet-and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down-Skywalker was already there.
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.
Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.
It was time to alter his own tactics.
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.
Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.
Now it was time to kill.
The fact Lucas has Anakin on par with Sidious as both a combatant and Force power "points to this being the case."
Lucas hasn't said that though, and if he has it's a blatant contradiction, in which case his words aren't very reliable. If this is about the tiering system; Nick Gillard's words about a vague set of 'levels' discussed with Lucas in a back office during production, is hardly enough to overwrite George's statement of Mace, Sidious & Yoda > Anakin.
Except "those other people's world" decided that G-Canon also runs their continuity also. thumb upPlus, why even bring up Lucas then?
Then this is going to be a debate about the tiering system.