Invisible Hand Anakin vs Exar Kun

Started by BestDebaterEver11 pages

Originally posted by Jaggarath
LMAO @ ILS. Will respond later tonight.
Okay, I got you booked in for 3 weeks fam! Extensions available.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them

True -- but that doesn't change:

-Dooku just prior to the quote you posted was reeling from a surprise assault from Skywalker and Kenobi

The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---

Lucas hasn't said that though

But ... he has.

and if he has it's a blatant contradiction, in which case his words aren't very reliable

Or you accept my alternate interpretation, in which everything is perfectly consistent.

If this is about the tiering system; Nick Gillard's words about a vague set of 'levels' discussed with Lucas in a back office during production, is hardly enough to overwrite George's statement of Mace, Sidious & Yoda > Anakin.

No, he explicitly states "the levels were created by George Lucas," and they are even cited in the same Making Star Wars book as your "after Mustafar" quote.

Then this is going to be a debate about the tiering system.

You're the one who brought up Lucas. 😕

I like how Kun's confirmed to be > Star Forge but people still pedal the entirely wide-open Malak quote.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
-The duo were leading Dooku into a false sense of security
-Dooku was fooled by it and was taking it easy on them

True -- but that doesn't change:

-Dooku just prior to the quote you posted was reeling from a surprise assault from Skywalker and Kenobi

The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---

Lucas hasn't said that though

But ... he has.

and if he has it's a blatant contradiction, in which case his words aren't very reliable

Or you accept my alternate interpretation, in which everything is perfectly consistent.

If this is about the tiering system; Nick Gillard's words about a vague set of 'levels' discussed with Lucas in a back office during production, is hardly enough to overwrite George's statement of Mace, Sidious & Yoda > Anakin.

No, he explicitly states "the levels were created by George Lucas," and they are even cited in the same Making Star Wars book as your "after Mustafar" quote.

Then this is going to be a debate about the tiering system.

You're the one who brought up Lucas. 😕

Originally posted by Jaggarath
Or George is just referring to in-universe threats to Sidious, which Anakin wouldn't fall under until after he kills Obi-Wan.

👆

Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader as long as Padme was alive, ergo prior to the Anakin/Kenobi fight.

So yeah very possibly correct interpretation here.

This is why I keep warning people about taking 1 obscure quote and running with it as fact, whist ignoring all other evidences.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader as long as Padme was alive, ergo prior to the Anakin/Kenobi fight.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Palpatine had full control over Anakin/Vader
Originally posted by Darth Thor
full control

Originally posted by Matthew Stover
Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.

He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . . transformation.

A fatal transformation.

Everything was proceeding according to plan.

^ Future planning that would not go anywhere until the post AniVader/Obi-Wan battle which Lucas refers to as the point where he may have become a threat to Palpatine... Had that fight gone his way.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
True -- but that doesn't change:

The fact Dooku's "reeling" indicates his senses and powers should be hyper-alert and ready to utilize.

Moreover, nothing in the context changes if Dooku starts in a better situation. Dooku physically cannot match Anakin's strength. There's nothing he can do but retreat; otherwise, he's almost chopped into pieces in three strikes. Note that even after Dooku replenishes his power and relieves himself, he's *still* immediately forced into a retreat.

---

Seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but if you can prove Anakin can "nearly threeshot Dooku" without the aid of a surprise attack, Kenobi's help, Dooku letting his guard down and a lengthy duel leading up to the supposed "near three shot", you are welcome to do so.

I mean, if I could threeshot someone, I wouldn't bother with Kenobi and Anakin's theatrics and strategy beforehand. I would just threeshot him. Anakin didn't threeshot Dooku later on in the fight either, even with his mounting anger.

Exar Kun is already greater if not on the same leagues with Sidious.

Anakin takes a good beat. That is all he gets.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Exar Kun is already greater if not on the same leagues with Sidious.

Anakin takes a good beat. That is all he gets.

Hah

Originally posted by Vitiate
Hah

I don't know if it is supposed to be a counter or a proof.

But as long as it doesn't provide any insight. It's not my concern to reply with a counter.

Keep in mind that Anakin almost three-shotting Dooku was when he was still holding back. Even when he was almost causing the Count to fall unconscious Dooku explicitly made note of how Anakin was still holding back.

"The boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical."

^ This is before Palpatine's interference.

I don't agree with Evannova's analysis of Plageuis, but I feel if you took it and applied it to Anakin it'd fit quite well. Anakin does have the power to oneshot a bunch of people like Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti, he just won't because he's reluctant to use that power.

Just as Anakin's hindered on Mustafar he was also hindered on the Invisible hand.

The only time Anakin's truly unhindered or close to being so is during Operation: Knightfall.

"He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard his new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life."

Anakin metaphorically crushing the dragon under his heel his basically himself giving himself permission to use his FULL power at it's FULL capacity.

👆

Yeah, and then before the Mustafa fight Anakin senses the Dragon left poison in him which starts weakening him (metaphorically of course).

And still not good enough to compete with Palpatine (reserved for Yoda and Mace). Anakin takes this L

Yeah Palpatine or his older self. If he faces his older self then hed be in some serious shit!

Anakin Skywalker have tremendous raw power and have a shot at victory in theory but Exar Kun can make good use of his Sith Sorcery in order to succeed.

Yeah, honestly, Kun one-shots with sorcery.

Without sorcery, we have him scaling so far beyond Muur in skill it isn't funny. Muur who proves himself capable as a swordsman against Darth Krayt. I don't think I need to make the adequate comparison between Kun and Muur, though I will if required.

In terms of power, we have prime Kun eventually becoming far more powerful than Bnar; who tanked the surface of Ossus rupturing from ten supernovae, due to the knowledge he'd gained from the Chamber of Antiquities and other knowledge from the Great Library. The same Bnar who channels power from a devastated Ossus to borderline stomp Sedriss who was arguably a threat to Luke Skywalker.

Anakin wins

Sub-Malak trash is sub-Malak trash