Invisible Hand Anakin vs Exar Kun

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how you're using Jmango's argument for ships and cannons as if I've been using that myself in more recent arguments. I fully accept it isn't referring to the production of military resources.

But no, this is out of grasp with the actual context:

If I understand you correctly now, you're stating that Malak was in possession of powers above what Exar Kun could wield. I will try and cover that here, and also if Malak was in possession of powers potentially above what Exar Kun wielded, as I feel that's also a possibility, and important to nip that in the bud before it becomes a goalpost move.

Which if true, it means you've accepted the quote as legitimate, but you've spun it ever so gently as to IYO be meaningless. It's a little confusing.

"Yes he did possess powers above Exar Kun, but it doesn't put it above him, nor would it help him in a fight."

Eh?

Originally posted by AncientPower
This literally states he gets three extra Force feats(techniques) and 24 extra skill points(Mastery) in said Force feats from a mysterious power source, but it doesn't specify which Force feats/techniques/powers they are. That doesn't matter all that much in our debate though. Because this entire quote is the in-game attempt at implementing the effects of the 'mysterious power source' (Star Forge) on Malak. It's literally this quote in game terms:

And you'll notice how many extra skill points were given to POWER UP his Dark Side powers like lightning and such, not his actual (new) Force Feats. He gets 3 extra feats, but then he gets a lot of points to actually power up his dark side moves. That indicates a powerup in line with the article.

And no, I never did, or don't think I have excluded the possibility of him getting new powers. He had a decent amount of time to hone his skills with the Star Forge and the additional power after all. However, I don't think a few powers (3) is what it was applying it to in the usage of "far greater", and even more so when it gives him a host of points to power up his normal force powers beyond his level.

Also this:
"Enhanced Force Powers"

And yes, it kind of matters what powers he was given considering your argument has him being a "user" of powers far in excess of what Exar Kun knows. Let's think about this for a minute here. Let's actually go down the path of what he could know that could be in far greater numbers than Kun:

He doesn't know Battle Meditation, or the Force Storm. He doesn't know alchemy (of which Kun is an expert on), nor has he done actual rituals (though he apparently knows some Sith sorcery). What powers is he going to use and learn from the Star Forge that are above Kun's total power? There are very few powers where on their own they would be considered above the power Kun wields due to how powerful they are.
Did Malak know Thought Bomb, Force Destruction, Force Storm... Force Net, etc? It's not really a long list of actual powers he could learn to potentially be above Kun of that esoteric nature, and if he did actually know them, then yeah, that admittance would probably put him above Kun on its own., and therefore his raw power. Especially if he could just fire off a thought bomb on his own instantaneously.

If however, you don't want to assume Malak knows moves on this nature, then you go back into what he did know and that would be his common powers like lightning and drain and such. The quote would then in your opinion mean that the Star Forge gave him powers above what Exar wielded, which would basically be admitting that it was specifically speaking about raw power instead of the potential potency of the Force Power in question. Unless you're arguing that Cory who is a master of plurals specifically used a quote for no reason... which you are. I mean, this entire argument is just a massive semantic argument about an assumption you have on the usage of the quote.
But in the case of it referring to common powers and still not putting Malak above Kun, you would be arguing that they could very well have referred to any possible power imaginable in this case, as any power has the room to grow above what Kun wields. You've made the quote so redundant that it actually brings into question the writing abilities of Cory, and makes him look kind of simple. But that is speaking about the potential of powers; you seem to arguing that those powers he wielded WERE above what Kun wielded. So... if they were common powers that were above what Kun wielded... I'm at a loss as to how he's not above Kun? Not only would that mean that his personal power was so great that common powers were above Kun, but it would mean in a head to head power off between the two users using comparable powers, that Malak would overpower him by a considerable degree. But yet... that wouldn't be enough to be considered more powerful?

If a whole host of powers are greater than Kun's entirety, then yeah it wouldn't be wrong to consider him more power. Not only that, but the whole "Far greater" thing implies actual offensive/destructive power as well.

So yes, it is kind of important to distinguish what he was given if the quote was purely speaking of powerful Force Powers and has nothing to do with raw might. You think it more likely that the quote is referring to "unimportant" powers far greater than Kun can wield, yet find it ridiculous to think this could possibly have anything to do with Malak's raw power?

This is under the assumption that it is purely speaking about Force Powers as well in case I need to remind you, and ignoring again, that again, even in the game he gained a ton of points to level up his Dark Side powers. We could also look at the specific moves themselves, but leveling any of those up are going to do a lot for his offensive power.

---

I think I know what you're going for, and I will address that[1], but first, you spoke of Traya's "giga" drain being above Vader. While the technique might be heading for a no-limits fallacy, it's really no different than any other force power. Lightning, force push, choke, etc could all be above Vader.
The difference however between Traya's drain and the Kun/Malak quotes, is that Traya's drain ability was never stated to be directly more powerful than the totality of Darth Vader. There is no relevance to be had here to this conversation.

To compare it, we would need a quote like this:

"Traya's power drain ability was far greater than Darth Vader."

And yeah, if something like that were stated, we have a specific power above Vader, and we could probably surmise that Traya can beat Vader. Might not have more raw power, but that's really not relevant in a battle between the two. And because it's a drain ability, it builds with it the implication that Traya could become immensely powerful.

A couple things here though. There are what, 3 levels of that specific drain in the game? We have fodder assassins, Traya, and Darth Nihilus. That means the drain ability on its own is obviously dependent on its user, and it (to fit your argument) obviously isn't just a power that is above Vader. And considering Nihilus vs Vader is an argument (maybe not to you), it brings forth a question of that specific power at its maximum even being considered above Vader.

It's a dangerous technique to be had, sure, but not exactly one you can put above Vader.

What this ignores however, is that the quote seems to be contrasting similar powerS, and exactly that... powerS. Something you make a little fuss about later on. Let's see what that quote looks like adjusted for powerS:

"Did Malachor V provide Darth Traya with powers far greater than even Darth Vader, or was a Force Nexus too simple of an explanation?"

Since we're just going by the assumption of powers here as opposed to raw force might, we would then have multiple powers in addition to drain that are above Darth Vader. It gives us an "Oh" moment where we have other things in addition to her drain putting her above Vader. It's not one specific force power anymore that makes her a threat to Vader's power, it's multiple. And then it can let our minds wander to what else can be above Vader level:

Lightsaber dueling
Force fortune telling
Maybe even her choke
Drain
Power sever (iirc)
etc

You know what? Maybe a couple of these in combination with that quote would put her above Vader. It's not one thing anymore, she now has multiple powers above what Vader can wield. So yes, if Traya was tied to that quote with Vader and it only being specifically about powers and not raw might, that quote would put Traya above Vader. While that would be hard to prove outside that specific quote, in the context of speaking about like me and you are about Malakun, it would definitely not look good for what the author thinks about Vader compared to Traya.

And that is how you would tie Traya to Vader and that quote. Not just throw out one questionable power and say "See, it doesn't work because Traya has one cool power!".

Originally posted by AncientPower
Like, it couldn't be more obvious that this is what he was going for. In both quotes he refers to powers Malak has that he gained from a power source no one knows about. It clearly doesn't refer to Malak's actual power in the Force. Note his usage of these terms:

"and devastating Dark Side power"

"Did it provide him with powers far greater"

Herndon clearly knows his plurals and singulars, he tells the reader about Malak's actual power well before then.

"His lightning, drain, force pushes, chokes, stasis, etc are far greater... but not his actual power!"

Think about it as an expansion for his actual application of force powers as well. He had devastating Dark Side power, and something provided him the powers to consider his Dark Side power devastating. He doesn't need to keep speaking about his power when he's adding additional context... but I think I've said enough up there. Let's move on to a slightly different thing.

You speak of the significance of plurals, singulars, and a peculiar little 's', but you fail to realize that "far greater" doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of it being purely about being about powers that don't flow into Malak's greatness. I will speak more about the significance of the quote, and the people, but first I want to sum up some stuff I've said over these few posts:

Malak using an amp possesses extraordinary Dark Side Powers out of proportion with his stats.
Malak then gets new powers, and more importantly a bunch of skill points to power up his normal dark side exclusive powers. This hints at a Dark Side Nexus
Bastila gets a powerup on the Star Forge as well.
Darth Malak is literally ripping out tainted Dark Side energy to power himself up in the game [1]
His powers, or at the very least some of his powers are far greater than Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun
The writer of the article thinks that Malak would beat Kun

Basically what these factoids establish is that Malak is fairly amped, and it stands to reason his fairly common powerS would be amped as a result. Not only does logic dictate that, but the article outright states he gets points to power those powers up. Some of those powers or even new powers get amped to a degree to be placed above Exar Kun, and the writer himself thinks that Malak himself is more powerful or at the very least would beat Kun - indicating these powers are combat efficient powers if they weren't common powers he already had.

Even if we argue the semantics of this statement like we're doing, it's not exactly a leap to assume the article points to Malak being above Kun. Like I said, it's not exactly an article along with the subsequent tweets that belongs in a respect thread.

But you know, whatever floats your boat I guess, let's move on.

---

You're under the assumption that they brought up Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun as a comparison just to say Malak's power up gave him more potent powers than them, and this would be an utter mistake to confuse it with raw power. It specifically used two of the more recent Sith Lords of that time (both in the timeline and IRL) to compare him to; two beings known for their raw might. And if he is using them as a point of comparison, it stands to reason he is contrasting raw power with them. If he is using their raw power afterall, it'd be questionable if he wasn't contrasting the raw power of Malak's "moves". If that's the case, as said above, it would flow into raw power as well for Malak.
Had they brought up versatility, alchemy, range, impact, or any other sort of thing, it would be another story. They specifically brought up powers however. Kun's strength were his Dark Side Powers. If powers were "far greater"... that doesn't indicate Kun was brought up to merely serve as... no reason?

Back to the jaw thing and the possibility that it's speaking of powers they don't have however...
Are we really going to entertain the possibility of his jaw giving him super massive dark side powers in excess of Exar Kun's power, via powers that Kun wouldn't have? I mean it was a possibility, but it in the context of his jaw being a catalyst for power, it'd be more likely that it would only amp his current powers as opposed to giving him new powers that NaddKun didn't have access to. This statement seems to point towards current powers as opposed to new powers anyway. Not enough on its own, but important to note.

And one more point on the language of the quote... it's again, a direct comparison that his powers are "far greater than". Do you ever use the "greater than" symbol (>😉 in combination with "far" to indicate comparing two things in completely different aspects? That sentence indicates that it's comparing similar powers. You wouldn't say a Nuke is far greater than a tidal wave for instance unless you were specifically talking about destructive potential. I don't know exactly what you think is being compared (though I have my suspicions), but I do know it wouldn't make sense to contrast passive Dark Side powers with the powers Exar Kun wielded.

Let's take a look at that sentence with the application of the greater than symbol though:

Malak's powers >>> Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun

Even if we focus heavily on the cute little 's', that doesn't exclude Nadd/Kun as we know they also have "powers". It was saying his powers are > their powerS. No actually, it was outright saying his powers are > than even THEM.
What your argument would then be, is that Cory was focusing on Malak's powers and straight up compared it Nadd/Kun. Not their powers, just them as a whole.

If you really want to be pedantic.

AAAAAANNNNNNNDDDD... you speak of Cory's intentions when Cory himself even after all these years still thinks Malak is above Exar Kun. Naturally when he was writing pure hype for brand new Malak, that thought wouldn't have crossed his mind to compare him to the fairly recent Sith Lord dealings of Kun and Nadd and them being hugely powerful.

"Nah, it's pretty obvious that I'm referring to the potential of his powers he has and this has nothing to do with his raw power. Also I think Malak is more powerful than Exar Kun, but this article has nothing to do with that!"

Basically, the Star Forge made Malak's powers far greater than Kun. It doesn't mean he was given more powers than Kun, or powers Kun doesn't have, it means whatever he was given allowed him to be perceived above Kun; even if he were limited in range. For example, if he only knew, or even gained lightning and drain, his powers were so high that that apparently was enough to be considered more powerful. That's how the quote reads to me.
It very well could have provided him with additional powers as well... powers that were far greater in power than Exar Kun that is. srug

Originally posted by AncientPower
More importantly, the entire gist of Malak using the Star Forge in the actual source material, doesn't put emphasis on how corrupted the station is or how powerful he is on it. The big smoking gun is literally Malak being able to draw taint from the Force power of dead Jedi willy-nilly. The big threat he makes is that he'll do this to Revan:

"Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!"

And yes, turning someone into living battery is kind of a big threat. He already says he's going to beat him, there's not much more he can do to threaten him with his power besides kill him. He chose a worse fate though. He tells Revan that Revan himself will be supplying Malak power while he conquers the galaxy.

You kind of lost me here like this actually had nothing to do with power or something. I don't know.

*This is [1]*

Now this is what I believe you're referring to when you mention super duper powers. You're speaking about the drain of Malak, or at least I believe so... could be wrong, doesn't matter.

Now, as we've established earlier (and you just did), the Star Forge is the one corrupting the powers of these Jedi. Darth Malak does not possess this power however. Darth Malak is only getting more powerful from draining these powerS. The only purpose of these powers are to specifically increase Darth Malak's dark side might. So if this is the big lead up to the powers Malak is provided it is literally a powerup for him. Not a corruption, not a super duper drain power, but it is literally powering him up. Which falls in line with what I'm saying.

So, as we know something is providing him with powers far greater than Exar Kun. Why not concentrated Dark Side energy from an unknown amount of individuals?

If it's so simple as a powerup, then yes, naturally his powerS would be far greater IF he took it to that level.

---

Is everything I'm saying making sense, or at least probable to you? Keep in mind I'm not arguing that the article if definitive proof that Malak > Kun. I'm just saying that if you're going to speak of the article and combine it with tweets, it certainly seems to STRONGLY hint at him being greater. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Revan totally > Naddkun though. 🙂

Jesus. Did you have to write two walls of text? Don't expect me to quote slice in my response to you.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Consumption of tainted spiritual energy from Jedi who are dead, but suspended in a way that they can't become one with the Force. That's the big secret to the Star Forge. It's actually pretty interesting, because that's what Darth Plagueis spent years researching to try and prevent. The spirit's inevitable pull into the Void/midichlorians disappearing upon death. He was increasing his power with the tainted power the Star Forge gave him access to.

Very impressive, because it's far from your average drain. In fact, I'm not entirely sure it is drain. Regular drain would be Krayt drawing on Luke/Abeloth. This is more akin to spirit consumption ala Nox or Vitiate.

I'm not sure where I'd put it personally, but I do agree it's not just a normal drain.

I also do think Malak was quite powerful, and on the Star Forge he was fairly unclassified in power. You can't really scale him to anything but Revan at the end, and Revan isn't exactly the easiest to scale either. But yeah.

I'd actually be interested to see what a thread would bring out about that quote. I'd do some research myself, but I don't want to. I kind of just want to play KOTOR 2 to cleanse my palate of all this roleplaying shit I've been reading.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Jesus. Did you have to write two walls of text? Don't expect me to quote slice in my response to you.

You reply to whatever you want, it's OK. If I do respond again which there's no guarantee, I will respond with what I deem needed to properly address everything you state. I almost didn't reply with this one as I didn't really care, but I figured what the heck, can't sleep, might as well. Still upset I wasted a post on "numerous" though, but whatever, another day.

So, first off, let me get something straight. When I say that the Star Forge afforded him 'far greater' powers than Kun or Nadd had the possibility of weilding. I am thinking along the lines of these:

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause.
- Star Wars Chronicles of the Old Republic

So Revan and Malak had access to a planet-sized storehouse of secret Sith knowledge. This is already something Kun wouldn't know, and they themselves would know this because they had access to some of the Sith Brotherhood's teachings:

While in the Unknown Regions, Revan and Malak steep themselves in the teachings of those Sith who had been defeated in the Great Sith War.
- Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

So that's already pretty indicative of Malak possessing an unknown amount of esoteric knowledge, which Kun wouldn't possess, so where does the Star Forge factor in you ask? Well, the Star Forge is an even greater powerbase and source of esoteric knowledge than Malachor V.

The ancient Rakata combined proficiency with the Force with a mastery of technology and bioengineering. Massive weapons of war–such as the Star Forge, a space station powered by the dark side and capable of manufacturing whole fleets–were among their largest-scale achievements, but not every Rakata creation was so grandiose. Rakata mind traps are capable of containing the psyche of an individual in a virtual environment. Creatures bred and enhanced by Rakata life-shapers can survive both hard vacuum and baradium explosives. Rakata droids possess weaponry capable of breaking apart most forms of matter at the atomic level. Rakata relics–even nonfunctional ones–are desperate sought after by those few scientists and archaeologists aware of their existence. Urban legends among smuggling rings tell of ancient devices that wreak havoc on their owners, and both Imperial Intelligence and the Strategic Information Service monitor these rumors with interest. One stray Rakata artifact can change the course of history.
- Infinite Empire Codex Entry

The Rakatans had means of using the Force in ways neither Jedi or Sith comprehended. Soa had techniques that could create mind traps out of thin air, use advanced lightning techniques known as a Force 'vortex', teleport and more. Given that the Star Forge was the pinnacle of Rakatan power and Malak had full access to this station, well, I think you can guess where I'm going.

There's a whole boat load of esoteric and forgotten knowledge out there throughout the mythos that many of the traditional powerhouses of Star Wars are not privy to. This is doubly so for Rakatan Force knowledge.

So Malak having access to extremely esoteric and savant Force powers that would be naturally far more potent than those Exar Kun had uncovered would not only be well within reason, but essentially common sense. Nor would this necessarily corellate to superior Force power. The reason I say this, being that we have the likes of Wyyrlok III with an unrivalled knowledge of the Force in his time and arguably greater Force powers, but clearly not more raw power than Krayt. There are many examples to choose from.

But I mean, if we really want to talk about Cory Herndon here:

"I think my thoughts at the time were that Malak was in a position to, with Revan, conquer the Republic, and therefore was the most powerful. And I was *definitely* thinking that the Star Forge's power, both in terms of being able to spit out ships and perhaps having a Dark Side connection (it's been 15 years, sorry) made him clearly one of the most powerful Sith in history."

So, even if you want to argue that it does mean what you suggest it means, then you must conform to Herndon's statement that Malak's far greater power is a combination of his prime position to conquer the Republic(backed up by the Legacy CG), the Star Forge's incomparable ability to churn out endless ships, and then perhaps a dark side increase in power. So only one-third of Malak's superiority to Kun, per Herndon himself, can be owed to the Star Forge having some sort of connection to the dark side. Which again, is debatable as to what exactly that entails.

Though, I am glad to see that you're as sharp witted as ever, my old friend. Many others here take it as word of God.

A Sidious-tier vs a sub-Malak has-been
I could not possibly pick between the two

No children in the adults area please.

Alright. I will leave, sir- or is it madam? Gosh, I can't keep track.

God would be more befitting.

Yes, sir-madam-it.
I will worship the sub-Malak scrub. I will build a shrine for His Fantastic Holiness Exar Kun.

If we needed slave labor, we'd be handing out fliers

Hey, hey, I was just trying to give the has-been a little something to console his humiliating defeat at the hands of Malak
Can one not be kind anymore?

Originally posted by Valpoorion
Alright. I will leave, sir- or is it madam? Gosh, I can't keep track.

transphobic piece of shit

#istandwithancientpower

Originally posted by AncientPower
So, first off, let me get something straight.

Couple things. Different things, but there's a couple of them.

First off, is that all of those things come out many years after that article. Why that is important, is because he's obviously not referring to codex entries about where Malak got his power from before the game even comes out in the first place. You can't retroactively think Corey was speaking of things invented many years after the game came when all he had to base his article off of was the game where Malak used the Star Forge and got more powerful.
Basically, the quote can't be referring to that, but if you want to twist it in such a way, be my guest. Just don't pretend like you're correct in the reading of the quote like "It's pretty obvious Corey is speaking about this" when you have no actual statements that he's speaking about that. Even in your tweet you just posted, it doesn't corroborate statements like this:

Like, it couldn't be more obvious that this is what he was going for. In both quotes he refers to powers Malak has that he gained from a power source no one knows about. It clearly doesn't refer to Malak's actual power in the Force. Note his usage of these terms:

So let's get this straight here.

You are using proof from many years afterwards to make it "obvious" that he's referring to this. You have no actual proof however that this is what's being pointed to. Even in the tweet you just posted, he literally points to the Star Forge and a dark side connection. Not relics. Not holocrons. Not being better than Malachor V, and not knowledge. He points to a Dark Side connection. Which is again, in line with him literally eating Dark Side from people.

So I mean, you could say this is why, and give a reasonable explanation as to why. But you have no actual proof is the issue, and when referring to the quote, everything is retroactive and nothing actually follows to where you want it to lead.

---

As for the Tweet itself along with some choice stuff.

You've already divorced yourself from the quote of it referring to the Star Forge's creation:

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how you're using Jmango's argument for ships and cannons as if I've been using that myself in more recent arguments. I fully accept it isn't referring to the production of military resources.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That his powers were 'greater' than those Kun or Nadd weilded, not more numerous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The potency of a technique does not equate to the individual power of the user. I somehow doubt you'd agree Traya > Vader due to 'giga' drain.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So, even if you want to argue that it does mean what you suggest it means, then you must conform to Herndon's statement that Malak's far greater power is a combination of his prime position to conquer the Republic(backed up by the Legacy CG), the Star Forge's incomparable ability to churn out endless ships, and then perhaps a dark side increase in power. So only one-third of Malak's superiority to Kun, per Herndon himself, can be owed to the Star Forge having some sort of connection to the dark side. Which again, is debatable as to what exactly that entails.

And him going off memory to still wind up with Malak being one of the most powerful Sith in history doesn't help. First off, he tried to backtrack into saying it was because of Revan with him. Now, I don't know how you tricked him to say this, but the original article clearly made mention of Revan being out of the picture.

Though Revan was the master to Malak's apprentice, the senior Sith Lord soon fell to treachery. Enraged by the death of his master, Darth Malak declared himself the Dark Lord of the Sith and renewed his campaign of hatred and bloodshed.

I've already said my piece on why it makes little sense to be referring to the limitless ships. You've also separated from that as well, as shown above.

Him having a foggy memory doesn't help clarify anything when he's clearly wrong. I can't blame him though, you show me something where I try and explain my mindset from 15 years ago and I won't be the most knowledgeable on it either. Especially when I clearly didn't read the original article.
"Explain this huh, I bet you can't."
"Uh... fuk, not this shit again."

Anyway, that's still 2 quotes where he says Malak > Kun, and then a new one where he says Malak is one of the most powerful Sith in history due to his limitless production and him foggily thinking the Star Forge gives him a Dark Side connection. Which is just it, he didn't clarify why he thought Malak was above Kun, he clarified why (in his head), he thought Malak was one of the most powerful Sith in history. Which either lends to his confusion, or it's not entirely applicable to that statement as to why he thinks Malak > Kun.

Again, if you want to play the pedantic game.

Also, just because it's "one third" of the statement, doesn't mean it's one third of the importance to this specific conversation. Him confirming a power increase to being one of the most powerful Sith of all time doesn't exactly back up what you're saying. And a Dark Side connection from the Star Forge is literally what the original article states as well.

The original quote was clear enough. Trying to muddy the waters with tweet questions this loaded where you have to keep reminding him where he said it:

@HernCo Hi Mr.Herndon, just a quick Star Wars question. I'm afraid your tweets from yesteryear have been used in a way I imagine you wouldn't like. Some have taken your replies regarding the Malak vs Kun topic so seriously that you're actually being used as some authority.
I was hoping you'd clarify the Darth Malak blog's statement regarding Kun vs Malak. Are we supposed to take this as some indisputable fact or just a rather more subjective point of view made on your part via the blog? Thank you for your time!
So would you say that things said in the Web Supplements only apply in the Star Wars Miniatures game and shouldn't be taken as having precedence over the larger Star Wars Legends universe? Thanks again!
Kun vs. Malak in the blog. Should that be taken as a marker of over-all power or only the powers that they can weild in a fight? Those are two interpretations. Given Kun's stated parity with Sidious in Legends, it says a lot about where Malak, and by extension Revan, stand.
The web supplement about Darth Malak:

Doesn't help.

A little bit of conflict where it doesn't override Malak > Kun isn't exactly decisive.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So, first off, let me get something straight. When I say that the Star Forge afforded him 'far greater' powers than Kun or Nadd had the possibility of weilding. I am thinking along the lines of these:

So Revan and Malak had access to a planet-sized storehouse of secret Sith knowledge. This is already something Kun wouldn't know, and they themselves would know this because they had access to some of the Sith Brotherhood's teachings:

So that's already pretty indicative of Malak possessing an unknown amount of esoteric knowledge, which Kun wouldn't possess, so where does the Star Forge factor in you ask? Well, the Star Forge is an even greater powerbase and source of esoteric knowledge than Malachor V.

The Rakatans had means of using the Force in ways neither Jedi or Sith comprehended. Soa had techniques that could create mind traps out of thin air, use advanced lightning techniques known as a Force 'vortex', teleport and more. Given that the Star Forge was the pinnacle of Rakatan power and Malak had full access to this station, well, I think you can guess where I'm going.

There's a whole boat load of esoteric and forgotten knowledge out there throughout the mythos that many of the traditional powerhouses of Star Wars are not privy to. This is doubly so for Rakatan Force knowledge.

What that also means (Jaw), is that they are presumed on his person. Which you may be arguing that here - in that he is learning these things and applying them. The problem is, and I don't think you realize it, is that you are indirectly arguing for the placement of Malak over Kun.

Yes, do tell me of the planet of esoteric Sith knowledge that Malak spent years learning that Naddkun would never have access to, and then how he had years with the Star Forge that dwarfed said planetary storehouse of knowledge, in addition to a stated powerup, and absorbing pure dark side energy out of a bunch of Jedi. Oh but also that he had the potential access to powers that Jedi/Sith wouldn't understand. How he had full access to the Pinnacle of Rakatan power that apparently dwarfed all their other powers?

AND

His powers were stated to be far greater than Naddkun?

Couldn't be confused with raw power I'll tell you that much. 😂

Even moreso when both Revan and Malak were getting actually powerups from their knowledge, and Revan learned the thoughtbomb. Hell, it's presumed that Malak towards the end of the game was actually more powerful than Revan when he was Revan Darkside, and Malak was growing more powerful as time went on. So if you really want to give an explanation for his power ups, you can use that, but it doesn't exactly separate it from raw might.

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I could stop there. I won't.

It's not stated that he was more knowledgeable than Naddkun, it was stated that his powers were far greater, and also that the Star Forge amped his power... but I digress on that point. You're trying to make it a pure knowledge thing when that wasn't alluded to or implied. What Malak might have gained in knowledge wasn't what was being applied in that statement, or it went into his actual power.

Moreover, if you're going to piggyback off of Soa to try and say Malak had on par or even more knowledge... If you're going to use him as a point of reference for Rakatan Force powers that Malak may very well have had access to, then yeah, again, Malak would probably be pretty fukking powerful if he knew those techniques. Again, he probably would be considered more powerful than Kun just by knowing and applying techniques that Soa had.

You're not helping your point.

You're using a hugely powerful force user, who's techniques are largely unique to him to try and make me see how unique his powers are, and in no way relevant with sheer might. But you're having the opposite effect. It'd be like only using Sheev's lightning as a reference for how powerful Force Lightning can be. If that's my only point of reference, then I'm going to think that the user is immensely powerful as well as the technique.

It'd be like if the only transexuals in this world were from Matt Kroc's of the world transitioning. We would think that it impossible for a tranny to become a petite womanly shaped thing when all we can see is roided up dude bros with wigs. Oh, I guess it's impossible to look like a woman, trannies were a mistake.
It's not true obviously, but if that were the case, you would have no factual evidence to prove it wrong, only your theories. Can you become a normal looking tranny? Who knows, they don't exist.

Is there a correlation with Soa's raw might and learning his techniques? Fukt if I know, fukt if you know, fukt if Allah knows.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So Malak having access to extremely esoteric and savant Force powers that would be naturally far more potent than those Exar Kun had uncovered would not only be well within reason, but essentially common sense. Nor would this necessarily corellate to superior Force power. The reason I say this, being that we have the likes of Wyyrlok III with an unrivalled knowledge of the Force in his time and arguably greater Force powers, but clearly not more raw power than Krayt. There are many examples to choose from.

Wyyrlok was never stated to be above Krayt in Force Power
Malak was never stated to be above Kun in knowledge
And Malak being stronger than Kun wasn't proven wrong.

Hell in addition to that, Wyyrlok was explicitly stated to have his Dark Side abilities be weaker than Krayts. Abilities, not power. But you know what this actually meant? That he was WEAKER than Krayt. You're using a guy as an example who's "abilities" are weaker than Krayts, yet you're raising a stink about someone's POWERS being FAR GREATER being presumed to be stronger according to the quote?

Not only that, but you keep mentioning knowledge up above when Kun's huge increases in power came from knowledge anyway, and going back to Darth Whirlocks, things like this exist:

Not to mention, he was a loremaster, while Krayt was trying to learn powers directly from great Sith Lords among other things. And Dark Whirlilocks acquired enough knowledge to be a sufficient challenge to Krayt anyway, as well as second in his entire army.

Basically, even if what you're saying is true, you're using an example from a guy who was second only to one of the top 3 Sith of all time, and he did this through knowledge.

You're using a lot of faulty examples here.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Though, I am glad to see that you're as sharp witted as ever, my old friend. Many others here take it as word of God.

You want to disregard the quote because it doesn't follow in line with what makes sense, then sure. No issue with that. Malak looks like Trapjaw, no one will care. But I think it's pretty clear that that particular statement - which again, may mean nothing for factoring in - was speaking about Malakun in relation to power.

It really is as simple as it speaking of the Star Forge giving him Dark Side powers, and then realizing that the Star Forge was giving him concentrated Dark Side Powers at the climax of the game. It's a shut and shut case really, imo. Occam's razor.

If I actually had a care in the world about what you or any others deem to be acceptable clarification from Herndon then this might be true. I didn't trick him into saying anything, either, I just asked him questions he chose to respond to. He asked for clarification which I provided.

Now whilst I don't personally take the article to mean what you say it does, that doesn't exclude you or I from having to abide by his authorial clarification. Yet his clarification doesn't in fact effect my stance whatsoever.

The whole thing about the jaw possibly concealing some unnatural object granting him abilities is just a throw-off from the Star Forge, which Herndon is specifically keeping secret.

However, if one does want some analysis of quotes then, what the fvck does the following even mean?

He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

What? His far greater powers are some kind of cybernetic life-support? So what's it saying? Malak's vitality, durability and such are all somehow far greater than Exar Kun's? 😂

You're gonna have to seriously explain how that's even relevant to the Force, because it doesn't even say Force powers, it just says powers. That it highlights life-support only makes the Force being involved even less likely.

Hell maybe we're all wrong and this doesn't refer to the Force whatsoever.

Assuming you do, however, give me a reason to believe it even refers to his Force power/powers. . .

You've completely misread my actual point, I am not saying Malak has more knowledge. I am saying has other sources of knowledge. That was me establishing a premise. I am saying that the powers he possessed were more naturally potent. You agreed that his ability to corrupt the essences of Jedi was very interesting and I'd take it as a means to suggest that the Star Forge definitely granted him abilities far beyond his normal comprehensive level.

Revan had no idea about the Star Forge's true capabilities but he came out on top regardless. The examples merely act as evidence of Force-users having grand Force abilities that their superiors do not. Which doesn't therefore grant them some natural superiority in power.

And if you do really want to analyse everything, there's a quote without nearly as many loopholes in it that outright states Exar Kun is even stronger in the dark side than the Star Forge itself is.

Herndon couldn't have worded it any worse.

It seems KMC members around here should be remembered that the Star Forge doesn't amplify darksiders' Force power, it feeds on their corrupt Force signatur, similar to drain. It isn't the Star Forge directly which boosts Malak's strength in The Force, it's the Force signature of the Jedi he captured as trophies.

I feel like I've addressed almost everything you've said, or explained it enough so that there's no confusion. So...

Originally posted by AncientPower
If I actually had a care in the world about what you or any others deem to be acceptable clarification from Herndon then this might be true. I didn't trick him into saying anything, either, I just asked him questions he chose to respond to. He asked for clarification which I provided.

Also you started off the tweet section by acting like people using his statement were ridiculous:
"I'm afraid your tweets from yesteryear have been used in a way I imagine you wouldn't like. Some have taken your replies regarding the Malak vs Kun topic so seriously that you're actually being used as some authority.
I was hoping you'd clarify the Darth Malak blog's statement regarding Kun vs Malak. Are we supposed to take this as some indisputable fact or just a rather more subjective point of view made on your part via the blog? Thank you for your time!"

Naturally he doesn't want to please you.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Now whilst I don't personally take the article to mean what you say it does, that doesn't exclude you or I from having to abide by his authorial clarification. Yet his clarification doesn't in fact effect my stance whatsoever.

His clarification certainly doesn't help your stance however, and that's the issue here. It doesn't delete what was stated, it only offers insight into what he thinks he was thinking when he wrote it 15 years ago. It doesn't actually distance it from speaking of power either, nor does it specifically mention Kun like the other two things do.

Go tweet him again to get a more definitive answer though.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The whole thing about the jaw possibly concealing some unnatural object granting him abilities is just a throw-off from the Star Forge, which Herndon is specifically keeping secret.

However, if one does want some analysis of quotes then, what the fvck does the following even mean?

The Jaw is important because it assumes that he's not bringing 1000 different things with him into battle that you would notice (besides the Star Forge). In combination with what actually empowers him, we know that it's not actually observable to the eyes when he's in the Star Forge. IE, we don't assume it's a fukking mech suit or something ridiculous because nothing points to it being obvious to what it is besides his out of place jaw or the unknown power source.

I realize it's to throw you off from knowing what actually empowers him, but that doesn't change that it's possible to confuse what he's empowered by.

In other words, you could confuse an amp in power with his jaw or something on his person unseen, but creating limitless ships or having a ton of artifacts visibly in his hands? Not likely.

Even throughout the game the only difference in Malak's appearance was the addition of a metal jaw. We didn't see him really do anything to add to additional powers. He never used anything but the Star Forge, so we can assume it's not speaking of some power he never used being referred to. IE, his jaw is a plausible explanation for his power up.

Again, I've made it clear enough to what I'm speaking about when I bring that up, in combination with me obviously knowing the Star Forge empowers him.

"Did Darth Malak's jaw give him far more physical strength, ship building abilities, and cannons than Exar Kun, or Freedon Nadd (intangible spirit incapable of physical strength, cannons and ship building qualities)?"

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Those weren't connected to his powers. But considering we know the limitless supply of ships was no secret, yet we still assume "Powers far greater" had in someway anything to do with ships, then the article is literally asking - in some people's interpretations - if his fukking jaw is the cause of this limitless amount of ships.

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Back to the jaw thing and the possibility that it's speaking of powers they don't have however...
Are we really going to entertain the possibility of his jaw giving him super massive dark side powers in excess of Exar Kun's power, via powers that Kun wouldn't have? I mean it was a possibility, but it in the context of his jaw being a catalyst for power, it'd be more likely that it would only amp his current powers as opposed to giving him new powers that NaddKun didn't have access to. This statement seems to point towards current powers as opposed to new powers anyway. Not enough on its own, but important to note.

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Again, I think it important to note that his jaw according to the article could have been mistaken for his Dark Side Powers being Far Greater than Naddkun. Unless he's got some Dr Who shit going on in his jaw, arguing how much Artifacts, Relics, and Holocrons he could have doesn't mean much. When you're speaking of things he would need to carry anyway that would add power/powers.

What that also means (Jaw), is that they are presumed on his person.

Originally posted by AncientPower
What? His far greater powers are some kind of cybernetic life-support? So what's it saying? Malak's vitality, durability and such are all somehow far greater than Exar Kun's? 😂

You're gonna have to seriously explain how that's even relevant to the Force, because it doesn't even say Force powers, it just says powers. That it highlights life-support only makes the Force being involved even less likely.

Basically, the inclusion of Nadd excludes the possibility of it being anything but the Force. He was basically a force ghost not known for huge strength, or ship advancements. He was known for power, giving power, and being a ghost.

As well as, you don't bring up two guys known for being two of the most powerful Sith of all time up to that point, and start talking about shit they weren't known for. You wouldn't say you were greater than Mike Tyson and have anyone confuse such a statement for you speaking about reading ability only.
Tell me how comparing him to the two greatest Sith of all time in powers probably might not talk about the Force though. 😂

I've covered this though, you just didn't read it correctly. It's a ridiculous thought that doesn't require much attention. Again, the statement speaks for itself, no need to try and twist it.

Choice quotes that touch on it enough that it shouldn't have been an issue for you to actually ask me this (I actually did cover this a little more in the post I disregarded, but we'll ignore that until you spin all the way around to "It could be numerous!"😉:

"Did Darth Malak's jaw give him far more physical strength, ship building abilities, and cannons than Exar Kun, or Freedon Nadd (intangible spirit incapable of physical strength, cannons and ship building qualities)?"

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You're under the assumption that they brought up Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun as a comparison just to say Malak's power up gave him more potent powers than them, and this would be an utter mistake to confuse it with raw power. It specifically used two of the more recent Sith Lords of that time (both in the timeline and IRL) to compare him to; two beings known for their raw might. And if he is using them as a point of comparison, it stands to reason he is contrasting raw power with them. If he is using their raw power afterall, it'd be questionable if he wasn't contrasting the raw power of Malak's "moves". If that's the case, as said above, it would flow into raw power as well for Malak.
Had they brought up versatility, alchemy, range, impact, or any other sort of thing, it would be another story. They specifically brought up powers however. Kun's strength were his Dark Side Powers. If powers were "far greater"... that doesn't indicate Kun was brought up to merely serve as... no reason?

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And one more point on the language of the quote... it's again, a direct comparison that his powers are "far greater than". Do you ever use the "greater than" symbol (> ) in combination with "far" to indicate comparing two things in completely different aspects? That sentence indicates that it's comparing similar powers. You wouldn't say a Nuke is far greater than a tidal wave for instance unless you were specifically talking about destructive potential. I don't know exactly what you think is being compared (though I have my suspicions), but I do know it wouldn't make sense to contrast passive Dark Side powers with the powers Exar Kun wielded.

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In addition to referring to Freedon Nadd in reference to ship building and cannons, it also says FAR GREATER, not more numerous powers. Since we highly doubt it's including Nadd in the conversation with what the Star Forge creates (again, far greater, not powers he doesn't have in the first place), what could these possible powers entail? What could FAR GREATER POWERS be if we want to pretend it's not purely speaking about actual force powers? What could be more realistic than actualized force powers?

And in case it needs to be said, "powers far greater" is speaking of powers they already have. That statement is a direct contrast of their powers, and Malak's are greater. Not more numerous, not powers they don't have, but greater powers than them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Hell maybe we're all wrong and this doesn't refer to the Force whatsoever.

Assuming you do, however, give me a reason to believe it even refers to his Force power/powers. . .

You wonder why I cover so much in my posts? It's to avoid goalpost moves like what you're doing here. Now I could sit here and ask you questions to attempt to trap you, but I'm not much a fan of that tactic and haven't the patience. Instead I'd rather cover at length the possibilities of your conclusions and explain why that doesn't work out. I want to explain why you're wrong, not have you simply get trapped. The issue with that is, me not specifically answering why it refers to the force, but my logic still applying to it apparently opens you up to go against what you previously stated wasn't the case?
It was definitely the force and then now I need to prove it wasn't because you ignored that the same logic I've also used is applicable to that?

I mean look at what you're doing here, you're willing to admit you're absolutely wrong because it helps distance Malak > Kun based on you now rereading the quote and realizing you can twist it more? You've read this quote many times at length I assume, and apparently have had many arguments about it before, and what you're admitting to me in an argument largely based off of reading comprehension is that you've been possibly reading it wrong?

Do you think admitting to me that your reading comprehension is possibly not up to snuff is supposed to instill confidence in your argument? It's a squirmy tactic, and all it does is brings into question of why I should trust your current representation of the quote.

In case you need reminding, the argument is based off of me thinking something you posted in a respect thread doesn't mean what you think it does. Telling me now that it's possible that it means something aside from everything else you've stated here doesn't represent yourself the best.

It's a kamikaze tactic that still allows you to accept the article while keeping Kun above Malak... but it's really not a great tactic even if it succeeds. Any means necessary to disregard it.

I understand you're going to backtrack and say "I was just discussing the possibilities", but the possibilities still undermine everything you've stated so far.

Also lol at you stating this, and then still wanting me to answer it like it changes anything in your post. You haven't listened to a word I've said so far, why would what I say matters in whether or not you want to move the goalpost to exclude it from being force applicable?

In case it needs to be stated, but I answered this at the end of my last post of why, I'm just responding to the backtracking here. I really feel like I shouldn't have to state this, but apparently it's needed... ?

Originally posted by AncientPower
You've completely misread my actual point, I am not saying Malak has more knowledge. I am saying has other sources of knowledge. That was me establishing a premise. I am saying that the powers he possessed were more naturally potent. You agreed that his ability to corrupt the essences of Jedi was very interesting and I'd take it as a means to suggest that the Star Forge definitely granted him abilities far beyond his normal comprehensive level.

I also addressed potential powers specifically, but you know, saying I misrepresented something is more meaningful than addressing my issues with the entire knowledge and powers being brought up...

If you're going to throw a "It could have been this" at the wall and think it will stick, then I will answer the possibilities of that and explain why it isn't the case. I deem what is important to address, and I felt it needed to speak about the potential of the goalpost moving to knowledge, and why your example of Wyyrlok doesn't work. Same with the powers you're trying to bring up from Rakatans... but again, ignore that because... ?

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"His ability"

Again, the only ability he was granted in that specific instance was dark side powers of multiple Jedi. It's literally an increase in power if you want to circle back to that again.

Now, as we've established earlier (and you just did), the Star Forge is the one corrupting the powers of these Jedi. Darth Malak does not possess this power however. Darth Malak is only getting more powerful from draining these powerS. The only purpose of these powers are to specifically increase Darth Malak's dark side might. So if this is the big lead up to the powers Malak is provided it is literally a powerup for him. Not a corruption, not a super duper drain power, but it is literally powering him up. Which falls in line with what I'm saying.

Now, I do think it's interesting obviously in that it more than simply draining the force from the Jedi. But building off that specific example to show the potentials of his powers doesn't work since that was specifically about raw power. And you also implied that was his ultimate plan...

Admitting he was amped far above his normal level though is an interesting tactic considering the context of the debate. Yes, I agree he was amped. Yes I agree he had knowledge, powers, and Revan was better. That doesn't exactly go against my conclusion.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan had no idea about the Star Forge's true capabilities but he came out on top regardless. The examples merely act as evidence of Force-users having grand Force abilities that their superiors do not. Which doesn't therefore grant them some natural superiority in power.

Also I ran out of room here as this is the last thing I responded to.

Originally posted by AncientPower
And if you do really want to analyse everything, there's a quote without nearly as many loopholes in it that outright states Exar Kun is even stronger in the dark side than the Star Forge itself is.

There's nothing wrong with the quote itself. You're jumping through hoops to invent imaginary conflict within it to try and disregard it. It could be this it could be that, anything but the most obvious answer.

It's as simple as playing the game, seeing that the Star Forge was giving him powerups and therefore the entirety of the quote makes sense. It's actually as simple as reading the quote and not having to invent new context not found within said quote. When you have to post sources from a decade later to try and explain a quote that in no way connect to what the quote said... and it doesn't actually help you; you need to rethink exactly how correct you may be, or how correct the other person is.

But no, post the source that states Exar Kun > The Star Forge in that direct of a tone. If it doesn't specifically compare Kun to the Star Forge, then I believe it has some "loopholes".
Like I said, I don't really give a shit if Malak is above Kun or not. I'm just telling you why the quote says this, and reads differently than what you're trying to portray. Your reasons are not exactly helping, and you just indirectly helped show that Malak may very well be above Kun.

So yes, maybe this quote does state that Kun > The Star Forge, but that doesn't actually change the original article on its own. You're at that point not keeping to the context of the debate at hand, and are shifting goalposts to try and show something not pertinent to anything I said. At best you've proven that it takes precedence over the article, and we should go by that instead; it doesn't change the words in the article.

And mostly, it proves that you should have posted that in your respect thread instead of posting sources that claim Malak > Kun. Which is my original point.

But again, post this source, because now I am curious to see what it actually says, and see how many issues you've brought up in your posts would apply to said source had you been on another side of the debate.

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Anyway, I think this conversation has run its course for me anyway. When I can pretty much requote things to combat what you're saying, I think we're done here. It's obvious neither of us are moving at this stage, and it's entered repetition.

I'll just speak on whether or not I think this new source is specifically better or worse in portraying its message compared to the Herndon article.