Post 1 of 2
The quote is very clearly referring to the combat context, the mental gymnastics you have to perform to assume otherwise are pretty huge to be honest, him having the measure of his apprentice "now" is drawing a clear comparison between their previous fights.
This response doesn't address my argument. I agreed it's referring to a combative context - that doesn't mean the combative context doesn't have context. Specifically, the quote can be broken down in two points.
a.) The fact the text notes Vader now has a measure of Starkiller doesn't actually address what Vader's measure is. For example, Vader could have concluded Starkiller's significantly superior to him and requires an army of super-powerful clones to weaken Starkiller before confronting him personally. That might not be the case, but the quote doesn't preclude that notion like you are arguing.
b.) The statement appears to specifically be about lightsaber combat. The fact it notes Vader has "learned from that mistake" indicates Vader has patched up a flaw that allowed Starkiller to win last time. Given it's not a "mistake" to be overpowered by the Force, it's logically referring to weaknesses in Vader's lightsaber technique. This is consistent with Starkiller concluding this after noting Vader's skill with the lightsaber has improved.
Moreover, the prima guide states, "When Vader realizes you're tougher than he expected, he summons the help of the clones nearby." This suggests that Starkiller's actually wrong to believe Vader's adjusted to his abilities, for Vader's expectations of Starkiller's powers are even greater than anticipated. Consequently, Vader summons the aid of the 'super-powerful clones.' Thus, the quote you're using isn't even true regardless and can be comfortably dismissed.
And why would it state that Vader had got the measure of his apprentice if he was being beaten by him while exhausted [Combat context as mentioned].
Ah! It looks like I already answered that one. Note I'll be responding as I read your post for the first time.
And to answer your question no it doesn't work if Starkiller's not at peak as it's very clearly drawing an analogy between their fight in TFU 1 where Starkiller beat him and their fight in the present where they are equal by why would such comparisons be made if Starkiller was massively above Vader and only being stalemated due to exhaustion unlike in TFU 1 where he was at peak and destroyed Vader, now its suggesting parity though according to you Starkiller is massively above him and Vader was stalemating him because Starkiller was exhausted. How does that work?
This isn't coherent. Putting aside the aforementioned irrelevancy of the quote, why does the fact it references their last fight indicate this current fight is fought with their full power? You don't actually explain why that's the case - you just state it and ask how my interpretation is possible. Again, I explain in the first paragraph how my interpretation conforms to the quote.
Vader planned to exhaust him, this proves what exactly? And don't you dare say it proves Vader didn't believe he could beat Galan and needed to exhaust him first, that's blatant strawman, if I had the oppertnity to exhaust someone before a fight even if I could beat them on even playing field I would LMFAO
If Vader summons the 'super-powerful clones" for "help," that indicates Vader's incapable of consistently "ragdolling" Starkiller, which is the core point of your brother and I's discussion.
This argument is not going to convince anyone, Starkiller's opinion is not canon fact.
Yet you used Starkiller's opinion as your central argument for all the text above.
As to why Starkiller should be reliable in this situation, Force users can sense the power of their opponents. Starkiller constantly being in the presence of Vader while enslaved, and even firing Force lightning at Vader (which requires Vader to summon energy to counter), gives Starkiller intimate knowledge on Vader's capabilities. You could counter this by arguing that Vader suppressed his power throughout the game, but you said at the start of your post you don't believe that. Thus, there's no reason not to consider Starkiller's commentary here.
There's a pretty clear disparity between that and this, Starkiller's medative period is assistance yes but you are failing to grasp the point here. Starkiller after some meditation and the mere thought of her replenishes him to normal levels after thirteen days of torture.
You fail to address my actual rebuttal to this claim:
Most importantly, it’s terribly unconvincing that the quote you’re using even refers to Force power rather than Starkiller adjusting from the psychological effects of Vader’s torture and presence and now having newfound determination. It writes about how, “Being in Vader's clutches for what felt like a lifetime,” “He had forgotten what it felt like to be a free agent,” etc. These ideas have absolutely nothing to do with weakening Starkiller. Hell, the text doesn’t make one mention of “Force,” “reserves,” or “energy” throughout the passage. It's speaking to how Starkiller was enslaved and imprisoned by Vader, but now he's outside, free to roam, and in pursuit of finding the women he loves. *That* makes him "feel" stronger than ever.
That's not to say you don't respond to it though -
Maul's rage amp only made him feel like he could accomplish anything therefore it's totally invalid right?
I'm sure this made sense in your head, but it makes no sense on paper.
It never mentions the force so therefore it must not refer to the force even though it specifically notes him as feeling like he could accomplish anything, in the same way that Galan "Felt he stronger than ever".
Why does the text noting he felt that he could accomplish anything indicate Force usage? Are only Force users capable of feeling that they are capable of accomplishing anything when freed from captivity and on a journey to find the women he loves with his mortal enemy in the dust behind him? Also, why is it "in the same way that Galen 'felt stronger than ever?'" That passage specifically discusses the Force. This one discusses everything but the Force - specifically Starkiller's psychological and physical freedom and newfound opportunities. Also, why is Starkiller demonstrably acting at less-than-peak levels on Cato Neimoidia? Particularly, how are Starkiller's powers having little impact on Gorog but later able to atomize the Salvation and crush the Kamino cloning facility?
His exhaustion later wouldn't be negated by the mere thought of her as given he required meditation in addition to that, however this is more than the mere thought of her. She is physically present, his determination and love for her is at an all time high and Vader is the one thing standing between him and her, unlike originally where it was a mere thought of her. His love for her being far more prodominant and as per this quote "The only emotion he would give in to was love" he was totally immersed in it, submerging himself in it which should negate the need for meditation. He's not just thinking about it this time but actively immersing himself in it to stop Vader and save Juno, therefore here he should also be "Stronger than ever". Are you grasping my point?
You basically created your own fan-fiction and are debating in support of it. Where does the text state Starkiller "submerged himself" and was "totally immersed" in his love for Juno? Are you extrapolating that from Starkiller saying he will only give into love and not use the dark side, which is a general sentiment that he or most New Jedi Order Jedi would hold at any given time? Sure, the physical presence of Juno increases the intensity of the situation, but that mainly contributes to Starkiller's increased emotional instability, which we'll dive into coming up.
Considering Luke's never been under Galan's exact circumstances this isn't a valid comparison.
Except you're saying that Starkiller replenished his powers largely due to Juno by just thinking about her on his ship, which *is* a situation that Luke has shared many times over with Mara and Ben.
You missed the "Canon" part that says that with meditation and the mere thought of Juno Galan felt stronger than ever and recovered from 13 days of captivity and torture and ignore in this fight that Starkiller was "Going to give into love" and utterly submerge himself which should result in an amp or at least equality and overriding his exhaustion, showing parity to baseline Starkiller.
Curious phrasing. Starkiller doesn't actively move to "give into love" in that situation. Starkiller wants to retain his current outlook rather than fall to the dark side. Again, your laughable assertion that Starkiller "utterly submerged himself" is your own creation.
Starkiller was at normal levels both times tbh, or at least that's how I view it, the second time amped by love and the first by rage but only back to normal levels.
That's great you personally think that, but your physical case for it is atrocious.
Post 2 of 2
Via something that had nothing to do with power or skill and is therefore irrelevant to the present discussion.
Please articulate how Starkiller overwhelming Vader with his power has "nothing to do with power."
Do I really have to note the other times where this has happened which were rage amps.
Oh, I would love to see that.
So the text doesn't make as big a deal out of it therefore it's non exsistent?
There's a difference between the text not making a big out of it and the text never explicitly saying it happened.
I think you'll struggle to find instances similar to attacking with "All of his rage and all of his grief" and absolutely howling with fury in an animalistic manner that very closely resembles allowing the mindless rage of the dark side to posses you in the quote you posted while you attack.
It's ironic you say that, and you didn't address my post either:
"Are you insinuating that Starkiller completely embraced the dark side for a single strike, then completely rejected the dark side immediately thereafter in a snap? As you failed to address last time, Luke doing an even less extreme version of that in Return of the Jedi is described as ”unprecedented”. That means it’s never been done before - Starkiller included."
Based on Luke's actions being unprecedented, it's almost indisputably true that Starkiller didn't pull himself out of Force rage with such speed and clarity. In contrast, I guarantee you I can find many instances of Sith drawing deeply into their negative emotions without them going into Force rage.
Difference being Vader failed to destabilize Galan who notes that it was his plan not that he suceeded.
Uh, what? Destabilization isn't the goal - it's the beginning: "Who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair." In other words, Vader plans to destabilize Starkiller, causing him to have "anger and despair." Then, Vader plans to use these emotions to lead him to the dark side. Given the text establishes a clear cause-and-effect relationship between "destabilization" and "anger and despair," and that we know Starkiller had both "anger and despair," it's clear Starkiller was "destabilized" by Vader's actions. Moreover, Starkiller also had "fear and guilt," which HK-47 notes interferes with a Jedi or Sith's ability to use the Force. Thus, it's clear that Starkiller was weakened when Vader grabbed him, which explains why Vader could not in earlier or later contexts.
Look at what the prima guide says here: Vader "seizes the opportunity" to choke Starkiller when he momentarily wavers, blatantly indicating that Vader could have not performed the feat if not for the opportunity. Note the context here is slightly different from the XBOX version, but that doesn't change Vader requiring an opportunity to choke Starkiller. For consistency, Starkiller likely was in a similar state in the XBOX version, which I've independently demonstrated to be the case.