Darth Malak vs Darth Sidious

Malak shrouded Bastila's vision. Can Sheev compete?

- RotS Sheev
- Unamped Malak

This would be a jaw dropping experience for Malak.

Thank you. Malak stomps with his Kun scaling.

Palpatine scales from both Malak and Kun, though.

False.

Malak doesn't scale from Kun at all.

Kun's spirit is confirmed to be more powerful than Kyp Durron. Kun in his prime has big scaling from Ood Bnar that places him up there with DE Luke, who's already stronger than Yoda at this point.

Why do you have Kun below Yoda then? I swear you always do this, you hype Kun up to a massive degree and provide context for feats that sh!t all over Yoda's, then you cuck and put him below RotS Sheev.

Originally posted by RealistRacism
Why do you have Kun below Yoda then? I swear you always do this, you hype Kun up to a massive degree and provide context for feats that sh!t all over Yoda's, then you cuck and put him below RotS Sheev.

Because even AP knows there's no logic to be had in placing Kun above ROTS Sidious.

Because Yoda's only as powerful as Sheev via knowledge, not raw power:

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.
—Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi

So even with DE Luke being stronger than Yoda:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/5393739-6788966917-53937.jpg

That only likely means he's on par with ROTS Sheev, or a little stronger.

Now, the real question is how much does Sheev actually grow after this? Well TFU Sheev had a desperate battle with an inferior to Yoda, in Galen Marek. Indicating that despite 19 years of power growth, it isn't so considerable that Sheev would take Yoda in an easy fight the second time around. ROTJ comes around, and this is where his power does seem to rise considerably. More importantly, DE Sheev is much more powerful than he was in ROTJ.

DE Sheev only defeats this now Yoda+ Luke easily with an enormous nexus amp, but then goes on to get trounced by a much more powerful Luke Skywalker whose potential is being gradually unlocked by Leia.

So where's the middle ground? How much does the nexus effect the first stomp? How much does Luke's unlocked potential effect the reverse stomp? In mid-ground, with no nexus and no potential unlocking? It's a far closer battle either way.

Which means that ROTS Sheev's growth to his prime, might not be as gargantuan as everybody assumes it is. Sure, DE Luke is > ROTS Yoda. But we have reason to think that DE Sheev is significantly but not overwhelming more powerful than DE Luke.

So, where does Exar Kun figure into all of this? Not as powerful as the DE Sheevs or Tenebraes. But not that far behind either. Just my personal insight.

Though Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke is pretty mouthwatering.

Ah fvck, I messed up the image:

You mean to tell me that Yoda's force knowledge outstrips Palpatine's by so much that it negates/makes up for a supposed raw power gap? What force knowledge anyway? How to use tutaminis? Nothing we saw from Yoda in RotS required use of knowledge that Sidious didn't already have.

Was that image from the DE Sourcebook? You know, the one created before Yoda and Sidious actually fought?

Force knowledge isn't as simple as which techniques you use, it's more how you use them. His mastery of the Force is likely much greater than Sheev's is given the 800 year advantage he had on him.

You realise things aren't retroactively retconned by newer sources? Just because one guy at De Agostini told Ant that they weren't considering Revan at the time of the Fact Files doesn't change the scope of the entire canon system as established by Chee.

Not that Luke Skywalker being stronger than Yoda was ever in doubt, the only question was how long it took him to achieve that.

If not an individual power, then what? If the source meant Yoda was Sidious' equal because of 'overall mastery', it would've just said that. Instead, we're given a vague quote stating 'knowledge' as the reason, something that isn't relevant.

The Luke stuff is fine then, whatever. Anything that boosts Kun further is something I'm in favour of.

^ Knowledge/Mastery increases power anyway. So its just playing semantics. Important part is the quote suggests they were equals.

Originally posted by AncientPower

Sounds like the present tense tbh.

Precisely, as you said it's vague. So in some way, Yoda holds such knowledge that it bridges the gap to Sheev and allows him to hold his own over-all. My theory is that his eight century longevity advantage allowed him to master certain aspects of the Force to a degree greater than Sheev had. It's hardly beyond the realm of plausibility.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sounds like the present tense tbh.

If you can name any legitimately comparable adversary of the time, I wouldn't be overly opposed to that interpretation. But it seems to be a general estimation to me.

^ Why do they have to be comparable?

The entire Rebellion are adversarys of his. It wasnt Luke who destroyed the second Death Star and toppled the Empire.

It's not as if he's spent all of those 800 years solely dedicated to mastering the force, especially not for combative use, but I digress. I guess where I'm struggling, is the gap between Yoda and RotS Sheev being big enough to fit Kun in.

You seem to be speaking in terms of raw power only, which I never brought up. In terms of actualised power, Yoda and Sidious are demonstrably on par, which leaves Exar as... their equal?

If your whole argument is about raw power with no other considerations, then excuse my misunderstanding. But your scaling thus far, looks like this;

DE Sheev > Exar Kun > Spirit!Kun > DS Kyp Durron ~ JA Luke > DE Luke > Yoda (= RotS Sidious)

My point is that the difference between the Sheev incarnations is demonstratably not nearly as enormous as we might think. Where Kun fits in is debatable.

Not sure that’s the point you were making but okay. Still, mentioning DE Sheev next to Valk is laughable now... he doesn’t compare.